May 5, 2026

Golf Swing Evolution

Golf Swing Evolution
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In this week’s episode, golf historian and author Stephen Proctor joins Josh Karp to explore the evolution of the golf swing. Stephen reveals his six 'immortal golfers,' explains how Americans transformed golf instruction, and breaks down why the gap between your swing and a tour pro’s has never been wider.

PLUS this week we are giving away five signed copies of Stephen Proctors book, Matchless. To enter the giveaway subscribe to the Corrected Mistakes newsletter for free:
https://substack.com/@correctedmistakes

WOW, Fred has been nominated for the 2025 Audiocaster of the Year by the Bay Area Radio Hall of Fame. Please vote for our founder as often as you'd like as the more you vote, the better his chances of recognition. Voting is open now through July 1. Vote now at BARHOF.org Thanks for your support and Good Luck Fred!! 🤞

Please welcome our new host of Golf Smarter, Josh Karp! Fred has retired from his work life, including the podcast, and will be working on his game with more intention than ever. If you have a question for either Josh or Fred, or if you’d like to share a comment about what you’ve heard in this or any other episode, please write to Josh at karpj2323@mac.com or Fred at golfsmarterpodcast@gmail.com.

For exclusive content and first access check out Corrected Mistakes on Substack: https://substack.com/@correctedmistake

WEBVTT

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We're giving away five signed copies of Stephen Proctor's book Matchless.

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To enter, you just have to sign up to our

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email list for free. You can do that in the

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link in the show notes or at substack dot com

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slash at Corrected Mistakes. That's what we'll be posting bonus

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content and doing giveaways like these.

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There are six immortals in the game of golf.

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All the analytics tell you is the further you hit.

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It right, the better you are. And you know that's

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become the modern golf swing, a kind of bludgeoning.

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If you play golf, you know the deal. You take lessons,

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you take a tip from YouTube, you practice, you integrate,

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and then it works until it doesn't and you're back

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at square one. Simply put, you've joined the quest for

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the perfect swing. So if you're obsessed with breaking eighty

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or ninety, lasting it to eighty, or hitting it down

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the middle, you've come to the right place. This is

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golf smartest, correct and mistakes, and now here's your home.

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Josh Cart Today, I'm lucky enough to have Stephen Practor,

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who is a golf history in here with us to

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talk about the history of the golf swing. Stephen, thank

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you for taking the time to do this.

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I'm delighted to be on. I really appreciate the opportunity.

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It's always fun to talk about the history of golf

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for me.

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Yeah, well, you've written several great books about it. So

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where do we start, Andrews.

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Yes, No, that's the beginning, and I would say that

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you have to think about the swing as something that

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evolves with the course conditions that you played in, with

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the technology that was available to you, in particular the

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evolution of the ball. So the first ball, the feather ball,

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you couldn't strike it in the way that you strike

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a modern ball, or it would just explode and you

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look like you lost a pillow fight, and feathers would

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be flying everywhere. It needed to be swept off the ground.

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But you couldn't have that downward strike that you have

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in the modern age. It was a very sweepy swing

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and in order to get distance on it, you need

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to have quite a long turn of the club around

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your body. So it was a very arms and wrist

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focused motion. If you look at John Daily or Brooke Henderson,

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who take the club all the way around in that way,

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that was the way the golf club was swung at

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the beginning, so you could get as much force on

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that sweepy swing. He played exclusively with long nosed wooden clubs.

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But I think if you're thinking about the modern golf swing,

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you need to start with what I would think of

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as the first modern ball, and that's the gutty ball,

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the hard rubber ball that you could you could strike

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that ball, you could hit it. You know. You almost

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never used an iron with featheries because they might burst

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if you were close to the green and you could

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ship it. Certain players they know, they well, they did go.

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They did get airborne, but not like the height of

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a ball, be like a little below quail high. They'd be,

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you know, flying quite low under the wind, and all

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from the game would be played mainly on the ground.

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So the Saint Andrews swing is not very closely related

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to the swing as it exists today. Modern swing really

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begins with the introduction of the gutty ball in eighteen fifty.

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And the thing about the gutty ball is you could

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hit it with irons, and so irons start right away

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to become the predominant club, and as a result, the

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swing begins to evolve. The big moment is the arrival

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of young Tom Morris, the first player that decided that

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a way to hit a golf ball was to absolutely

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lash at it, hit it as hard as you could,

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as far as you could, with every single swing. And

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the result of that was that he shortened the swing

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to generate more power and more force. And that's where

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the modern swing starts to evolve, and you know, fearlessness

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being a big part of it. You know, hazards were

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really really hazards in those days. There was no such

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thing as a bunker rake. If you got in a bunker,

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it was a disaster, So people were cautious. Whereas he

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would throw, he didn't have any game for caution at all.

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And that's where the thing begins to change, and it

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wins to epically change with the introdution of the askeoball

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at the turn of the century around nineteen oh two

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or so, were.

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Young Tom Morrison and Varden contemporaries of each others? Or

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what where did they? Because I know Varden had a

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big inact on how the club was swung. Yes after Morris, Yes.

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They're not contemporaries. Tommy precedes him by fifty years or thereabouts.

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Tommy dies in eighteen seventy five and Garden wins his

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first championship in eighteen ninety six, So a generation separates them.

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I think if you want to look for the antecedents

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of the modern swing, you have to start with Carnousti,

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because around the turn of the century, Carnousti sends hundreds

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and hundreds of men to the United States to be

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golf professionals, two hundred and fifty through the US alone,

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four hundred to become golf oppressionals at various other places

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in the world. And the Carnousti swing was a swing,

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and that was much more upper body turn focused, the

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kind of swing that you see a modern golfer making

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begins there and certain key teachers come to the United States,

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namely Stuart Maiden and Alex Smith. Stuart Maiden was the

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model for Bobby Jones's swing, and he also was the

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teacher of Alexa Stirling, who was one of the first

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breakthrough women golfers in the world, one of the first

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women to really lash at the ball in the way

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that a man did, cecil Leach being her contemporary in Britain.

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So those two men, Stuart Maiden, Alex Smith, and a

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lot of other Carnoustie teachers begin to take this idea

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of this Carnoustie swing that's more upper body turn focus,

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meant to deliver more power and strength to the strike

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of the ball. I think Stuart Maiden's basic instruction was

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hold your hands this way, stand up to the ball

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this way, and now hit the hell out of it.

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You know, that was one of the things they want,

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a strong and powerful swing. And then you mentioned Varden.

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So along about eighteen ninety Varden comes along and he

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and all the players from Jersey have a considerably more

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upright swing. And Varden was one of the first people

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to make a very very upright swing, and his swing

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was considered to be picture perfect in that age. And

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so that's another really big step along the road, is

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the arrival of Varden. Part of the reason that it

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is such a big step is that in nineteen hundred

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spends most of a year playing golf all over the

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United States. I forget the exact number of exhibitioncy but

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he's put on, but I think it was around one

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hundred exhibitions for you know, golf courses all over the

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United States. And that is the thing that really gets

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golf going in America. The first permanent club in America

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was founded in eighteen eighty eight, so Varden arriving becomes

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the basic model for Americans learning the game. Also right,

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and I think the other thing that is important. Americans

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took the game in a way different way than Scots

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or Englishmen ever had, or any British person. British people

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did not practice. Of most classic golf facilities have no

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practice area or have had to create a practice area

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somewhere within reasonable driving distance of the club because the

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original clubs people just didn't practice. In Britain. What they

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meant by practice was if they were having trouble with

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their mashie, they would take it out to a quiet

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corner of the course in the evening it hit about

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eight shots with to try to figure out what was

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going on. That was practice, as far as British were concerned,

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Americans practiced. They practiced assiduously, They built facilities for the

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purpose of practicing, and in that way Americans really begame

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the first significant analyzers of the swing. You know, mostly

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it was taught in a natural way in Scotland. Even

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the Carnisty players and stuff but Americans started to die

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it much more technically and that became quite popular across

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the pond in about nineteen twenty or nineteen thirty as well.

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Was that a cultural difference that you know, Americans started

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practicing like crazy too.

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I do think it is a cultural difference. You know,

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Americans have a culture that's very individual, excellence focused. I

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will succeed on my own, whereas Britain. Golf, in particularly

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in Britain, is much more a team focused thing. Most

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people played foursomes as opposed to score play golf. The

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members of the Oxford and Cambridge Golfing Society began to

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get really interested in American ideas. And there's a book

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that's written by Joyce Weathered and Roger, her brother, called

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Golf from Both Sides, and part of it was a

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chapter about Roger having gone to America to see what

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Americans were doing with the golf swing and to try

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to understand why Americans are starting to beat the British

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all the time and for me and they'd never been

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able to do that, but now they've elevated the swing

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and the practice and the mentality about golf to a

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point where they're starting to win and Roger devotes a

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whole chapter to why Americans' ideas are working better than

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our ideas and it's just fascinating to see. And you know,

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once again, technology is deeply involved, because starting about eighteen

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eighty you could take photos that would stop in sequence,

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and then the breakthrough time really is in nineteen thirties,

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when Bobby Jones is excelling, Joyce Weather it is excelling.

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You can actually get a movie now that shows your

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swing and can stop at every certain number of seconds

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to show you precisely where your club is going at

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every moment. We haven't really gotten off that track from

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that moment to this, We've merely continued to perfect it

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to the point now where an average golfer like me

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can if they were that sort of person, which I'm not.

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I need to point out that my you know, knowledge

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of the swing is very strictly academic, as anyone has

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ever seen me play nos. But you can have TrackMan

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on your range, you can see where your clubs go,

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you can see anything you want.

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I've had the horrifying experience of seeing my swing on

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a video camera directly next to Ernie l swing. Yeah,

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and it's nothing I ever want to see again. I

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did take a lesson where they had an indoor facility

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with the track man, and it was un believable. You

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do learn a lot just of basic stuff. I can't

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imagine how for somebody who's doing it all the time,

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who's not a pro. It's got to be just totally

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overwhelming all of that information.

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I would think, so for me, it wouldn't work for me.

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One of the most formative books written about golf is

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called Shape Your Swing. The Modern Away by Byron Nelson

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to test golf balls and golf equipment is called the

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Iron Byron because it replicates the first person who have

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perfected and understood the completely modern swing. Nelson got very

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close to the perfect swing. And of course Nelson had

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huge influence over the game because he helped to teach Watson,

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and he helped to teach Venturi, and he was a

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mentor to many stars in the game in terms of

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how their swings developed and how they moved the golf club.

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And then Hogan, I think, becomes the you know what

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I would call the final mountain of the modern swing.

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You know, he gets to where it's you know, very

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near absolute perfection.

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Now with Nelson. The big factor, as you were saying,

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was you know, you've got equipment, you've got you know,

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the places they're playing, and a bunch of other factors.

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And I know the steel shafts were really the big

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change for Nelson, right, he had to learn how to

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swing with a steel shaft as opposed to a hickory shaft.

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Was that not the catalyst that made this news thing?

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Yes, that's a huge evolutionary aspect of the modern swing

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because obviously a steel shaft going to produce more power,

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you know, have much more likely much more flex in

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it than a hickory cheft, which does have a fair

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amount of flex. But no, Nelson is the first generation

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of people to use one of the first to use it,

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because nineteen thirty, nineteen twenty nine, I believe, is when

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they are made legal. You know, Bobby Jones stayed with

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his hickory clubs, Joyce Weather had stayed with her hickory clubs.

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Many people did, but you know, the new generation went

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to the steel and Nelson was you know, that was

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very influential on how the swing went on to develop

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and the you know, more powerful dimensions of it that

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have continued to evolve into the modern age, where quite

229
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a lot more emphasis now is put on, you know,

230
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hitting the ball hard.

231
00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:45.279
They read a good article about about Nelson changing and

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00:12:45.320 --> 00:12:46.799
I think one of the things he said was that

233
00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:50.200
with the Hickory clubs you had to rotate the head

234
00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:56.159
open and then rotate it back again closed, and that

235
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that was not he could be much more vertical right

236
00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:01.720
with these or maybe vertical is not the right word,

237
00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:06.200
but less of that action with his hands.

238
00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:08.440
Well, it's much the modern swing just got much more

239
00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:11.480
focused on rotating around an axis and not have movement

240
00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:13.679
of your head or your body or whatever, you know

241
00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:16.399
what I mean. Percy Boomer put out a book called

242
00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:20.639
on Learning Golf, which is, you know, a very esoteric book,

243
00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:23.480
and I think it was published in the nineteen thirties,

244
00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:25.279
but I'd have to look it up to remember. But

245
00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:28.360
you know, a lot of what is taught in the

246
00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:32.960
modern game comes from the intellectual ideas that Boomer puts

247
00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:35.240
forth in that book, and a lot of it has

248
00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:38.519
to do with connection between mind and body. So the

249
00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:42.399
mental aspects of the swing start to get introduced into it.

250
00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:46.639
And you know, that's another hugely influential book that people

251
00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:49.399
like Tommy Armor and other people who wrote great instructional

252
00:13:49.399 --> 00:13:52.440
books were heavily influenced by that. Ernest Jones and some

253
00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:53.879
of the other great teachers.

254
00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:57.440
As reading where you know, Nicholas said he never even

255
00:13:57.480 --> 00:13:59.720
hit a shot of the practice range that he didn't

256
00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:04.639
visualized before. Do you know at all? When that kind

257
00:14:04.679 --> 00:14:10.279
of mind body visualization, the whole mental approach to the

258
00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:12.639
game became a formal thing that people were, you know,

259
00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:14.960
or not even formal, but just you know, who are

260
00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:19.080
the first players that were really trying to take a

261
00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:22.519
mental approach to the game rather than than just playing

262
00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:23.200
the way you play.

263
00:14:25.639 --> 00:14:27.960
I would say two things about that. One is there's

264
00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:31.159
always been a thread of that in golf instruction from

265
00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:35.240
the earliest days, because every book from the beginning would

266
00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:38.600
have a chapter on the mental approach that you have

267
00:14:38.679 --> 00:14:42.480
to take to a metal round, stroke play round as

268
00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:44.919
opposed to the mental approach you take to a match

269
00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:49.840
play round. So probably around nineteen fifty nineteen sixty, you know,

270
00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:53.320
Nicholas and those people you know are you know, there's

271
00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:56.200
this long evolution of how you get better and better

272
00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:59.120
and better, and of course the mental dimension then enters

273
00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:02.240
into that more and more I've just been reading Golfer's

274
00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:05.960
Gold by Tony Lima right, which is published in nineteen

275
00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:09.440
sixty four about his entry onto the tour, and one

276
00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:13.840
of his chapters is about how the turning point from

277
00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:18.200
him as a golfer was learning to be in control

278
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:22.759
of his mind. That's when he realized everybody can swing,

279
00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:26.720
everybody can putt. It's the guys who have control of

280
00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:31.840
their mind and their emotions and are able to withstand

281
00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:35.960
the psychological and emotional pressure of going low. Those are

282
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:39.159
the guys who win. I think it's really something that

283
00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:42.360
really starts to emerge in the fifties and sixties, as

284
00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:46.279
Americans continue to think more deeply about the swing the game.

285
00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:49.799
You know, teachers are always building on the generation that

286
00:15:49.799 --> 00:15:53.879
came before them. I don't know when golf is not

287
00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:56.399
a game of perfect came out, but it's always been

288
00:15:56.440 --> 00:15:59.879
under the surface. It's not like a totally new idea.

289
00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:03.200
No, It's like somebody like Nicholas was doing that way back,

290
00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:06.120
you know, way back when. Okay, so we were talking

291
00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:10.879
about Nelson. He developed kind of the one piece takeaway, right, Yes,

292
00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:13.480
was not also one of his innovations.

293
00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:15.440
Well, I mean, I think that's always been a part

294
00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:18.600
of the modern swing, say from even before him, Jones

295
00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:21.039
and those guys, they were going back you know pretty

296
00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:24.440
you know one Piec I would say, you know, straight

297
00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:26.720
left arms been a kind of a concept that's been

298
00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:29.440
there for a long time. I just think, you know, Nelson,

299
00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:34.919
you know, was basically focusing more on body rotation and

300
00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:37.279
stillness in every other way. He says, you have to

301
00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:40.320
think of yourself swinging out from under your head, you know,

302
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:42.960
so that you keeping your head in the same spot

303
00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:46.320
and your shoulders are coming under your chin and then

304
00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:49.080
your head is pulled up by them as you're swinging

305
00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:51.080
out from under your head. A lot of us who

306
00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:54.679
struggle with the swinging too fast on the down swing.

307
00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:59.279
That's because we swinging so fast that our arms are

308
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:01.679
lifting our head up before our shoulder ever gets to

309
00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:02.879
our gin, you know what I mean. And we're just

310
00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:05.319
getting way out in front of it. And I like

311
00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:07.519
to focus on that concept of swinging out from under

312
00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:09.039
your head. I just think that's one of his more

313
00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:11.240
revolutionary ideas that he had.

314
00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:14.559
Yeah, that's I mean, as I'm setting your listening, you said,

315
00:17:14.599 --> 00:17:17.079
I'm like, that's actually a great swing thought, right, I mean,

316
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:19.079
and there aren't a lot of great swing thoughts because

317
00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:23.519
they're usually so technical, and that's a real feel kind

318
00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:26.519
of thing, you know, which I think, at least for

319
00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:28.599
me a lot easier to process as a player.

320
00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:30.680
One of my favorite things I recite to myself is

321
00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:33.319
from the very first and what I would call pure

322
00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:35.759
instructional book that was written in eighteen eighty six by

323
00:17:35.799 --> 00:17:39.039
Horace Hutchinson, and it just is you should keep your

324
00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:42.359
eye fixedly on the ball from the moment your club

325
00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:46.359
is lifted until the moment the ball is actually struck.

326
00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:49.640
And I think that's about as pure and clean as

327
00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:52.279
it can be stated. And I particularly like the use

328
00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:56.000
of the word fixedly. You should keep your eye fixedly

329
00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:58.839
on the ball. And in a lot of ways, that

330
00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:01.200
is telling you the very same thing that Nelson is

331
00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:04.720
trying to tell you about the modern swing. He's expressing

332
00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:06.279
it as swing out from under your head, so, in

333
00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:08.279
other words, don't let your head move, And Hutchington is

334
00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:11.279
expressing it as keep your eye fixedly on the ball

335
00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:14.759
until you actually strike it, keep your head still, keep

336
00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:18.640
your eye fixedly on the ball, go back slowly with

337
00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:20.799
your club, don't press right.

338
00:18:20.920 --> 00:18:24.079
Okay, that's it's interesting too, I mean about the you know,

339
00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:28.160
the pressing aspect of it. I would think if you're

340
00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:33.440
a five or maybe an eight handicapper below, that's great advice,

341
00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:34.319
go ahead and kill it.

342
00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:38.319
But for the rest, no, I mean for me, I'm

343
00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:43.279
a I am a don't press guy. Still, I still

344
00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:45.400
think of that as sound advice for about ninety percent

345
00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:48.039
of amateur players, you know, but if you seek to

346
00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:50.640
be a pro golfer, that's a different matter. And you

347
00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.480
know that was the first thing Tommy tossed out, which

348
00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:56.920
don't press. No, I mean I'm gonna press on every swing,

349
00:18:57.079 --> 00:18:59.079
not just some swings, all of them. And you know,

350
00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:01.079
he would do things that people would never think of,

351
00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:04.559
Like if you played a certain hole at Musselburgh, you

352
00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:07.599
know there was a road that ran alongside it on

353
00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:10.359
the left hand side of the hole. Most people thought

354
00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:12.480
of it as the worst thing that could possibly happen

355
00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:14.000
to your ball would be that it would get in

356
00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:16.400
the road, because it could be in an unspeakable lie

357
00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:20.559
from which you would have real difficulty extricating it. Tommy's

358
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:23.359
idea was hit the ball onto the road, because if

359
00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:25.240
it hits the road, it's going to run like it

360
00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:28.079
stole something, It'll just go forever and who cares what

361
00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:30.200
lie it's in at the end of that. And you know,

362
00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:32.920
I don't see that big of a stretch between that

363
00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:37.160
concept and the concept of Bryce and De'shambo. Who is

364
00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:39.519
I'm just going to knock this ball into outer space

365
00:19:39.559 --> 00:19:41.039
and wherever it lands all play from.

366
00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:41.680
Yeah.

367
00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:45.079
Yeah, So the ideas exist for a very long time

368
00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:47.200
and they get iterated on I guess is all I'm saying,

369
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:49.880
you know, because that's what's Tommy's idea. I'm just going

370
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:52.039
to hit this ball as far as I can every time,

371
00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:54.359
and we'll see what happens. Yeah.

372
00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:56.640
And it's funny too, you know, because you know, I

373
00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:58.960
just only think of this because I interviewed somebody about

374
00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:01.799
Arnold Palmer the other day. I mean that was really

375
00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:04.039
Palmer's approach was just hit the hell out of it,

376
00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:06.599
find it, hit the hell out of it again. And

377
00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:09.599
then contrasting that to Nicholas and there somebody was saying

378
00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:15.039
that he would always have something in reserve so that

379
00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:18.880
when it was time to break somebody's back and he

380
00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:22.720
was in the right position, he would just go for it.

381
00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:25.599
So it's interesting that idea of you know, just going

382
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:27.960
for it all the time, which I think, like you said,

383
00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:30.039
I mean, that's what Bryson does that these guys today

384
00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:34.240
and all the analytics tell you tell them right that

385
00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:36.720
the big advantage is the further you hit it.

386
00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:41.039
Better you are. Yeah, and I and you know that's

387
00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:44.680
become the modern golf swing. I think Gil Hans described

388
00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:47.839
it as a kind of bludgeoning, which I thought was

389
00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:49.480
really spot on.

390
00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:55.039
Yeah, to get to this bludgeoning, so we go kind

391
00:20:55.039 --> 00:21:02.960
of Hogan Nelson era. Yes, the next development is what Nicholas.

392
00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:09.079
Yes, definitely Nicholas, you know, elevated the game power and distance.

393
00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:10.839
He was one of you know, he was the longest

394
00:21:10.839 --> 00:21:12.920
player of his age by a million miles. The other

395
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:15.359
thing is Nick Nicholas is one of the very first

396
00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:18.640
players a yardage book, long before yardage books were a

397
00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:21.920
common thing, and so Nicholas had a holistic approach to

398
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:25.759
preparing for a tournament. Strength and power would be the

399
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:27.960
biggest thing. And I think Nicholas was one of the

400
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:31.039
first times that the longest player on tour was the

401
00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:34.799
most dominant player. There have always been long players, but

402
00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:38.079
they weren't always as dominant as Nicholas was able to become.

403
00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:44.240
Right, right, Was he the first great non really self

404
00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:47.680
taught player, you know, because I know he had Jack

405
00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:54.000
Krout and Hogan and Nelson and Snead all taught themselves really.

406
00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:57.279
Right, Yes, I'm trying to think of whether I can

407
00:21:57.319 --> 00:22:00.920
think of a player who was very care carefully taught

408
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:08.559
by someone other than themselves that became as well. I mean, obviously,

409
00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:11.640
in the women's game, Glenna Collette became one of the

410
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:14.480
great golfers in history, and she was a complete creation

411
00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:17.640
of Alex Smith. She took lessons with Alex Smith for

412
00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:21.680
multiple years and then she she's the most dominant American

413
00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:26.400
woman player in history. And so I would say, you know,

414
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:30.279
and that's nineteen twenties. So I'm sure that there are

415
00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:34.079
others that are carefully taught that are not coming to

416
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:38.599
our minds before Nicholas, because you know, obviously Glenna. You know,

417
00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:43.759
basically Glenna was a prodigious driver even as a child.

418
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:46.920
Just she just was had a great movement, natural movement

419
00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:48.799
for the ball. I think she was like seventy pounds.

420
00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:50.559
She hit her first drive one hundred and twenty five

421
00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:53.599
yards when she was like fifteen or something, and just

422
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:55.960
brew everybody's minds, and this was the Hickory Club. So

423
00:22:56.039 --> 00:22:58.079
that's a long way with the Hickory when you're a

424
00:22:58.119 --> 00:23:02.880
tirty little thing. And she then played in some local tournaments,

425
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:06.440
went to go see Alexa Sterling play, inspired by Alexa,

426
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:08.839
decides she's going to be a golfer. She plays in

427
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:11.359
a tournament. A very famous golf writer named Dicky Martin

428
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:14.279
watches her and he comes up to her afterwards and says,

429
00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:16.400
you know, sees it. She can hit the ball a mile,

430
00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:18.319
but she's got no game. You know, she doesn't know

431
00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:21.119
how to play golf at all. And he asked her,

432
00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:22.400
what do you think of your game? So I can

433
00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:23.960
hit it far, but I can't do anything else. And

434
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:25.599
she goes, I got a guy that could teach you,

435
00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:28.839
And so she gets connected with Alex Smith. And I

436
00:23:28.839 --> 00:23:30.880
think probably there are a lot of stories in the

437
00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:33.319
early history of American golf that would line up with

438
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:36.960
that one, in both men's and women's golf. Certainly, Alexa

439
00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:40.680
Sterling completely taught by Stuart Maiden every bit of the way,

440
00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:44.960
and Glenna taught by Alex Sabith every bit of the way.

441
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.200
So you know, I'm sure there are people in the

442
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:50.640
men's game that suit that same thing. I just their

443
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:52.839
names aren't springing immediately to mind, because most of my

444
00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:55.799
study has been in Britain, where nobody practiced or even studied.

445
00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:01.920
I read that Nelson would hit a couple, you know,

446
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:04.359
hit maybe twelve to warm up before he played, didn't

447
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:06.960
practice after he finished, and that he really felt he

448
00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:11.680
had locked in that swing. I mean, is that accurate

449
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:12.240
or that.

450
00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:17.000
Is completely accurate? And you know the thing is practice

451
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:19.799
at the Hogan level was not something that was known

452
00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:24.039
in Hogan's age. Most people were in more nearer to

453
00:24:24.079 --> 00:24:27.640
the Byron Nelson camp where they they practiced. You know,

454
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:31.839
they warmed up extensively before around, they practiced on the

455
00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:34.960
days when they weren't playing, but they didn't practice eight

456
00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:38.680
hours a day, ten hours a day, right, Hogan practice

457
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:41.039
You know that mentality, which is I would say is

458
00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:44.480
pretty commonplace now is the level of practice that Hogan

459
00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:44.960
puts it up?

460
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:48.680
Now, what follows Nicholas? What's the next big development?

461
00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:52.400
And I would say after that, as Tiger, you know,

462
00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:55.119
Tiger comes along. Tiger is the next of the immortals.

463
00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:57.680
The way I look at it, there are six immortals

464
00:24:57.680 --> 00:24:59.880
in the game of golf, The first one is young Tommy,

465
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.039
the second one is Harry Varden. The third one is

466
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:07.000
Bobby Jones, then Ben Hogan, then Jack Nicholas, and then

467
00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:09.720
Tiger Woods. And those, to my mind, are the six

468
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:12.759
generations of the game that what you would think of

469
00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:16.000
as the modern game. Pro golfer needs to be an

470
00:25:16.039 --> 00:25:18.359
athlete who is as fit as a football player or

471
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:20.400
as fit as a baseball player or whatever.

472
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:25.759
Right. I remember reading an article about Nicholas and probably

473
00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:29.599
like you know, seventy seven and Sports Illustrated, and you know,

474
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:32.720
the thing was always, you know, instead of his fitness,

475
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:35.599
it was, you know, how much he weighed, right, And

476
00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:38.519
I remember he was going at a celery soup diet

477
00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:42.519
and that was the big development. You know, they're like

478
00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:45.759
Jack's going on the celery soup diet. He's lost fifteen

479
00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:50.960
pounds already. And then I met somebody had who had

480
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:55.240
been within fifteen feet of Tiger and he said, you know,

481
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:57.200
you know you saw him at Stanford and he's a

482
00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:02.240
skinny kid. He said, he is built like an NFL safety.

483
00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:05.960
Yes, that's a relatively new idea. There's a thread that's

484
00:26:06.039 --> 00:26:09.759
never been part of golf, you know, to be physically

485
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:12.720
trained in that way for the game. It's you know,

486
00:26:14.039 --> 00:26:16.319
I don't know of any other person in history. Maybe

487
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:19.720
Frank Stranahan was probably the first one, really the amateur player.

488
00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:23.519
Frank Stranahan was a muscle builder and worked out at

489
00:26:23.559 --> 00:26:26.160
that level. But it's been very rare occurrences, and nobody

490
00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:28.519
had the influence to make it widespread the way that

491
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:31.160
Tiger did. So, you know, but Tiger changed the world

492
00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:31.839
in that way.

493
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:36.039
For sure historically. I mean even when I was, you know,

494
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:38.400
in high school in the early eighties, if you played baseball,

495
00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:41.599
you were told not to left because it would make you,

496
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:44.880
you know, construct your ability to move. And I know

497
00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:47.039
it's all Bay said the same thing. How much do

498
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:51.440
you think that you know, because you and I and

499
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:54.960
every other amateur out there don't have a nutritionist, we

500
00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:58.480
don't have a stretching coach, we don't have a strength coach,

501
00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:02.319
and we don't have personal swing coach. How much of

502
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:08.160
the modern swing when when you're watching Bryce on Rory

503
00:27:09.799 --> 00:27:12.359
and you see that swing and you know, and you think,

504
00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:15.279
oh wow, should I be swinging the club that way?

505
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:19.240
It seems to me that is a theory that is

506
00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:21.240
being taught by a lot of people that is absolutely

507
00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:25.559
unachievable for somebody who doesn't have all that kind of

508
00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:26.359
physical training.

509
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:29.799
I would agree with that one hundred percent. That I

510
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:34.000
would say makes complete sense. The gap between the modern

511
00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:38.599
professional golfer and even the very high level amateurs has

512
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:41.559
never been wider in the history of golf than it

513
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:44.880
is right now. You know, there are very very few,

514
00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:47.480
even high level amateur golfers that can generate the kind

515
00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:51.039
of swing speed and distance a Rory mcelroory or Bison

516
00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:53.160
to Shamba where somebody can generate. So I think there's

517
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:56.720
a growing gap in between those and the wider that

518
00:27:56.799 --> 00:28:00.200
gap becomes less applicable. What a pro is doing with

519
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:03.599
their swing in the men's game is to what maybe you,

520
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:05.799
the person on the weekend, should be thinking about for

521
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:09.359
your own game. I would say that that seems it

522
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:12.160
certainly seems true to me. If I'm watching golf of

523
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:14.440
the idea of trying to learn anything, I would watch

524
00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:18.400
the LPGA just because I think the shot choices that

525
00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:22.920
they face, the distances that they hit the ball are

526
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:27.480
so much more in line with the distance that a

527
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:30.559
person like me is hitting the ball. Well, I mean,

528
00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:32.400
at least they're in the same universe, you know what

529
00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:35.799
I mean. And I don't know if other players feel

530
00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:38.839
that way or not, but I don't feel, you know,

531
00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:42.359
that most people could. I mean, there's you know, a

532
00:28:42.440 --> 00:28:45.160
very high level amateur, you know, somebody who's excellent, like

533
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:48.200
a four or three or two. You know, probably they,

534
00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:51.680
you know, should aspire to do what those players do.

535
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:56.319
But I would think any anybody who's not single digit

536
00:28:57.319 --> 00:29:01.160
probably doesn't have much to apply on what a pro does.

537
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:06.319
What one of my kids caddied in the Western Amateur

538
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:09.480
It was played at a local club, and he caddied

539
00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:11.720
for a kid who was like the Division III champion,

540
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:14.359
and they had maybe ten caddies from the local club,

541
00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:16.599
and then all the other caddies were just brought in

542
00:29:17.319 --> 00:29:21.359
and he said, the biggest problem for everybody was that

543
00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:25.720
they couldn't even follow the ball the way these guys

544
00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:28.799
were hitting it, and you had to, like the first

545
00:29:28.920 --> 00:29:33.359
round was all just adjusting how far they hit their drives.

546
00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:34.839
And these are kids, you know, who've been on that

547
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:37.799
course a thousand times, and he's like, you know, they've

548
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:41.000
never seen anyone hit a ball, even from these championship

549
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:43.680
or tournament teas He's like they would hit the ball

550
00:29:43.720 --> 00:29:45.160
and you just go, I don't know where the hell

551
00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:47.000
that thing went. It went so far. They're just playing

552
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:50.440
a completely different sport. I have one last question for you,

553
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:52.559
and thank you for this. This has been a great interview,

554
00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:57.279
not in terms of influence or anything, but who is

555
00:29:57.519 --> 00:29:59.880
who has your favorite swing of anybody who's ever played

556
00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:00.319
the game.

557
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:05.720
Joyce weathered by a long shot, and anybody who's interested

558
00:30:05.799 --> 00:30:09.039
can google Joyce Weather It's swinging. They will show her

559
00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:14.839
hitting various types of clubs, irons, and woods. I've just

560
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:19.480
published my latest book is called Matchless Joyce Weathered, Glenniclette

561
00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:22.720
and the Rise of Women's Golf. And Joyce played in

562
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:26.000
one hundred and sixty six matches in her lifetime that

563
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:29.759
were prominent matches, so not a ton of golf, because

564
00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:33.720
she retired early and often and just didn't have much

565
00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:36.920
use for it once she felt she'd proved what was necessary.

566
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:39.480
Of the one hundred and sixty six matches she competed

567
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:41.519
and she won one hundred and fifty two of those.

568
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:44.759
She have two others, so she had one hundred and

569
00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:48.079
fifty four times she was either one or was or

570
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:52.200
halved and twelve times that she lost career wise, so

571
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:57.000
winning percentage wise, that's ninety one percent, which nobody can

572
00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:01.319
even get in that stratosphere. And she Jones twice from

573
00:31:01.400 --> 00:31:04.079
the men's tea, and both times she was within a

574
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:07.319
couple strokes of him. Both times he said he was

575
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:11.240
in awe because, as he put it, somebody asked him, after,

576
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:14.359
have you ever played a better woman golfer? And his

577
00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:18.319
exact response was, I have never played any golfer, man

578
00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:21.200
or woman, amateur or professional, who made me feel so

579
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:25.279
completely outclassed. It was impossible to believe that miss Weatherward

580
00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:28.680
would ever miss a shot, and she never did. And

581
00:31:28.759 --> 00:31:31.000
so I think of her swing as the most perfect,

582
00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:34.480
as perfect as can be developed. I would say, the

583
00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:37.160
other swings I think of as very near perfection or

584
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:42.200
at perfection would be Mickey Wright, Bobby Jones himself, and

585
00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:45.799
you know, and Hogan and Nelson. You know, those are

586
00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:48.000
some of the other ones I think of as as

587
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:52.160
perfect as perfect can be. But you know, Joyce has

588
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:54.200
got as good a swing as there is, and she

589
00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:57.119
was able to repeat it over and over and over

590
00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:01.119
under pressure. And she's playing with Hickory Cubs, and she's

591
00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:04.000
playing from the men's Tea almost exclusively all her life,

592
00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:09.359
a golfer of exceptional ability.

593
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:12.359
Got it. I'm going to go look up that swing

594
00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:14.519
right after we get off. Now, when does your book

595
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:16.799
come out? And repeat the title again so people know

596
00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:17.240
about it?

597
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:20.920
Sure. The new one is called Matchless Joyce whether it

598
00:32:21.079 --> 00:32:23.799
Glenna Collette and the Rise of Women's Golf, and it's

599
00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:27.359
already published. It can be purchased online from Amazon or

600
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:30.160
Barnes and Noble online. And the other two books are

601
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:33.559
Monarcha of the Green, which is about young Tom Morris.

602
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:37.119
It's called Pioneer of Modern Golf where the discussion that

603
00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:39.720
we had today begins. And the second one is called

604
00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:43.319
The Long Golden Afternoon, which explains to you how golf

605
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:47.559
left Scotland and moved around the world and evolved into

606
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:51.079
the modern game you know today through the great players

607
00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:54.359
who made that occur, which is always how the game changes.

608
00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:57.240
Somebody comes along like Tiger, lists the game up on

609
00:32:57.279 --> 00:32:59.720
his or her shoulders, moves it into a new age

610
00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:00.400
and all we go.

611
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:04.200
Well, thank you for taking the time to do this, Steven,

612
00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:05.160
this is really terrific.

613
00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:07.440
I enjoyed it very much. Thank you for having me.

614
00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:08.599
My pleasure,