Sept. 23, 2025

Watch Your Superpowers Soar in a Mindless State with Performance Coach Jon Schram

Watch Your Superpowers Soar in a Mindless State with Performance Coach Jon Schram
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Season 20

GS#1018 In this episode Jon Schram shares his journey through the world of golf, detailing his early passion for the sport, the challenges of competition, and the mental struggles he faced. He discusses the importance of flow state in performance and how understanding psychology has shaped his approach to golf and coaching. Schram's story highlights the balance between joy and anxiety in sports, the role of support systems, and the transformative power of mental focus. We also explore the concept of flow in golf performance, discussing how golfers can achieve a state of mind that enhances their game. They delve into the unique nature of flow, the importance of mindfulness and focus, and how acceptance and consistency play crucial roles in achieving peak performance. Schram emphasizes the need for golfers to trust their abilities and maintain a positive mindset to improve their game.  For more, visit praxisperf.com 

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If you have a question about whether or not Fred is using any of the methods, equipment or apps we’ve discussed, or if you’d like to share a comment about what you’ve heard in this or any other episode, please write because Fred will get back to you. Either write to golfsmarterpodcast@gmail.com or click on the Hey Fred button, at golfsmarter.com

WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Kevin Triple from Willoughby, Ohio. I play at

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Briardaloe Golf Course.

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Welcome to Golf Smarter.

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This is the Douglas Gram from Dayton, Tennessee, and I

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play at Tennessee Hills Golf Course. This is Golf Smarter

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Number oneenty eighteen. A good way to wrap up what

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flow is and how to fall into it is relentless acceptance.

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I think the greatest sin as it relates to performance

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psychology in the game of golf, is allowing one swing

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to impact multiple, one situation to impact multiple, one bad

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balance to impact multiple. We play an imperfect game in

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imperfect air on imperfect surfaces. If we don't have an

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acceptance attitude, it's going to be a little harder than

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it should be. And I will say that maybe some

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of your listeners, it takes time. If you have the

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attitude of acceptance, tomorrow, there's still going to be frustration,

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there's still going to be headwinds, there's still going to

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be difficulties. But in time, it's more or less a

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rationalization that this is the better path. In golf contexts,

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mental toughness really is a rationalization. But this is the

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best path. I'm gonna choose not to respond to this

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in a highly emotional state because I know that a

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highly emotional state is going to impact the next maybe

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even impacts one after that.

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Watch how your Superpowers sore in a mindless state with

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performance coach John Shramp. This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories,

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tips and insights from great golf minds to help you

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lower your score and raise your golf IQ. Here's your host,

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Fred Green. Welcome to the Golf Smarter Podcast.

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John, Right, how are we doing doing great?

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I'm interested in having this conversation. I'm always interested in

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having a conversation with somebody who has studied and is

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putting the flow state the mental game into use at

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new levels. And you reached out to me, and I

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really appreciate that, But you have a fascinating golf history

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which I want to go first, so we established that credibility.

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I recently had someone reach out to me that wanted

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to talk about the mental game, but they didn't want

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to talk about golf, and I said, sorry, I don't

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want to interview you if you don't want to talk

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about golf. You just want to talk about corporate heads

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being you know, smarter no, I don't care. So let's

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start with your golf journey, which brought you to where

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we are going to discuss more.

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Sure, yeah, Fret, thank you so much for having me.

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I started golf. I was bit by the bug. I

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believe it four or five years old. Uncle uncle was

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heavily into golf that nobody in my family outside of

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my uncle was into golf. We would visit him once

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a week or once a year for about a week

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and that was just my golf week for two or

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three years. And you know, it's just one of those

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things where you know, you don't see a ton of

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them here and there. It's I think it's popping up

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back into the game, but just a little pitch and putt,

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you know, maybe eighteen fifty to sixty yard holes. And

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that's that's where I fell in love with the game.

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I could not get away from it in a way

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that I think. You know, it's six or seven. My

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parents were, Okay, well, if that's how you want to

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spend your time, go for it. Let's do it. You know,

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a similar store is many getting dropped off at six

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seven am, not getting picked up till six seven pm.

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At a small golf course called Raccoon Ron or So

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Indiana over in northeast Indiana, and very fortunate they're the

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guy that owned the place, actually played the tour. He

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played ten years in Asia, a couple of years in Europe,

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and then one maybe two years here on the tour

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in the US. Very tight with Payne Stewart. His name

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is Danny Hepler. It's actually I think actually a pallber

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in the funeral there. But he really cut his teeth

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in Asia with pain and so many stories. But has

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it related to me? Is it related to so many

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the juniors there? We were able to get, you know,

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all these lessons, all of these stories, all of these

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you know, he knew it, he already played it, he'd

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done it. So we had this great role model to

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look up to for you know, ten twelve years where

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I started competitive golf at seven and a you know,

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in accordance with many other juniors, just I want the tour.

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I want to play at that high level. I want

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to play at the highest level I can handle. Pursued

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it rather fervently. Was challenged by a high school coach

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to just say, hey, how bad do you want it?

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Let's push it, and all the way up until about

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eighteen years old. I mean took it six seven, eight

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hour days at the golf course. Really that was fun.

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It was just fun. It never was anything but fun.

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Late in my AGGA career, late in my junior career,

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things started turning. It really started to get to a

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point where I was pursuing the idea of Okay, if

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this is going to happen, this is going to happen,

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this is going to happen. Nerve, anxiety, fear, etc. Maybe

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even a little depression kind of hit. I was able

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to sign with a mid major at ball State. I

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stayed there for three months, transferred out. Nerve anxiety was

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too much to sleep, too much to bear, too much

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to eat, too much to do anything. Really turned into

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a dark period at least in my life. But it

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was one of those things that taught me a lesson

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of Okay, I'm putting all this effort into something I

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love so much. How can I hate it? And you

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know it is in that moment there I realized, Okay,

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psychology is something that I need to invest my time in.

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I didn't realize it'd be a career at that point,

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but I was able to sit down with doctor Bob

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Winders for a few sessions, and I think.

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We've had him on the show multiple times.

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Yeah, great, great resource. He's been an encouragement all the

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way throughout this experience for me. And in that moment,

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I realized, Okay, I think I know what I want

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to do now. I still love competing. I play at

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the highest level as I possibly can. Was fortunate enough

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to make the US Midydam last year and a good

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old eighty seventy seven was all I could muster. But

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I just enjoyed being there. My perspective is completely in

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a different light, but golf has always been kind of

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the greatest joy and the greatest pained in that sense.

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And I realized during my experiences at All State, during

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my experiences in college golf, that I think a lot

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of athletes go through that. In golf and many other sports,

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you put in thousands of hours of you know, your childhood,

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really in hopes of okay, am I good enough? Right?

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So in twenty twenty March twenty twenty, actually right when

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COVID hit I decided to start a PhD. I started

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studying flow state. That is kind of my expertise currently,

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but it's been a joy to help athletes in similar life,

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many of them in a different place than I was,

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is still enjoying it to a sense. But you know,

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this game has probably so much joy and so much

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passion that there's no way I can leave it.

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Incredible story. Thank you, and I appreciate your honesty and

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your openness to be able to discuss it. When you

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were playing at your best before I guess before you

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got to college and you were really obsessed with the

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whole thing, at what point did you get to start

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recognizing that you were crossing over into a dark side,

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if we can call it that. Yeah, and that fear

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and anxiety and it was starting to creep in. Was

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it your golf game that was prompting that?

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It was the scale at home? I was losing ten

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pounds every tournament that it played in, And I think

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at that point I knew that it was intense. I

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knew that it was something that I cared about. I

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think as I had conversation in groups with guys that

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I had mind, or at least guys that I still

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could beat up on the golf course, I'm like, are

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you guys feeling this? Are you guys not sleeping or

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you guys not eating, And now that I'm tight with

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several guys that are playing the tours, like, okay, there's

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a different mentality, there's an easier mentality. There's a little

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bit of a view on the sport of you on

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the game that is a little different than maybe I

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had in the moment.

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And were you losing weight because of the anxiety of performance,

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anxiety of playing competitively?

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Yeah, I think we all have seasons of life where

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we have big days, right, we all have whether it's

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related to the game, whether it's related to life. We

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all have moments where we're just like, I'm not sure

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if I can keep this down. I'm not sure if

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I can keep a full meal with me. Right in

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those moments, I think when it got really dark, it

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really was just Okay, I know I'm not going to

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sleep tonight. I know I'm not going to eat tonight.

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I'm going to be lucky if a granola bar gets down.

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But it was still worth it. It was still worth

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to get out there and just try my best, and

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in that moment the results are still there. But I

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think at some point you just start breaking down, why

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was it worth it? Then? Escape? I love the competition,

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and I love what I built. And I think when

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you talk to the very best performers, at least in

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our game, I think they're tremendous. There are pieces of joy,

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pieces of gratitude that get from the game in the

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sense of, at least for me, maybe when I'm really tight,

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when I'm really working on it, fifty six yard pitch, like,

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I can hit it fifty six, if it's one eighteen,

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I can hit it one eighteen. I can hit that

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little draw, I hit that little cut. That was the

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piece for me where I'm like, Okay, I have really

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good control this golf ball. I really really enjoy that.

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But I think when the lights turn on, there's a

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very different experience there. And that's the at least on

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the psych side. Now for what I do, there's tremendous

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amounts of joy that I take from being able to

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get a performer, whether it's any of my golf guys

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or any of my poker guys, just in a you know,

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it might be one sentence that gives them kind of

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the right perspective to be there. You know, I really

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enjoyed the grind of it, but at the same time

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I get just as much joy watching individuals that I'm helping.

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Obviously with losing weight at every tournament, losing ten pounds

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coming up for every tournament, it was visually obvious. But

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what were your parents observing in you and how did

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they handle it watching you know, the anxiety just take

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control of you.

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They were still very supportive of John. You've invested so much,

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you know, to be very honest, and now I understand

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they were investing a lot as well just for me

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to be out there. I was. I was mowing twenty

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yards a week just to be able to afford to

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be out in the AJGA. So you know, we've already

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made the investment. Let's just go out and try, right.

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I think when it came to a head when I

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did transfer, there was a little bit more at home

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that was just okay, you're just you're really struggling, and

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they understood that I've been very fortunate I have two

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very supportive parents and understanding that you know, there is

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a third rail here that you can touch that might

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be a little much.

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We got a sense of how your parents were reacting

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to what you were going through. How about your coaches?

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Where were they was? Everyone? Was anybody pushing you and

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or were you pushing.

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I think it was more an internal thing. I really

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had a lot of support and I think throughout, as

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I mentioned Denny on the front end, there of just

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kind of a very direct, very solid, you know, he

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skated through his time at Ball State, he transferred to

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FSU Florida State, and then you know, I think he

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got status right after that. Very simple, very straightforward. He

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was one of the best ball strikers really, I believe

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in that day he was very type tight with pain.

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So he had a lot of time really playing with

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the best of that time. So I'll think of things said,

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I've really had a lot of support from these coaches.

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I will say in high school, my coach Ben Barki

229
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at Warsaw very much understood the emotion, very much understood

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where I was trying to go, very much understood kind

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of the whole situation. I'll say this, I think you

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can see high level coaching come out in a in

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an improper way, or at least being pushed. I never

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felt that. I think I got I was very fortunate

235
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to sign Football State and somebody there that was very supportive.

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I ended up transferring to back to Grace College basically

237
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Home had a lot of support there as well. But

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to answer your question, it really was an internal thing

239
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because you know, while it is the greatest pay and

240
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it is the greatest joy, and I was just like,

241
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let's let's keep let's keep pushing, right.

242
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Uh, I guess, I guess. I mean if where where

243
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was your head? At any point? Did you go I'm out,

244
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I'm done. I can't do this anymore.

245
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You know. I think the stats say that if you

246
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could win three percent on tour year in the Hall

247
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of Fame, and I think though that three percent, whether

248
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it was a win or a contention, really was the payoff.

249
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I think that that, frankly, that that might be it.

250
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Currently now, I have tremendous appreciation for the architecture of

251
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the game and just what it is, and also the

252
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competitiveness of you know, even the mid am level. You

253
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have you have some guys that you know, they work

254
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nine to five, holy account, like if you really hadn't

255
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do a handicapped plus sevens. I'm just fascinated with performance,

256
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and I think where all of this has led, at

257
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least professionally in my career. I'm just fascinated with performance.

258
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I'm fascinated with individuals that have the ability to put

259
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into work to get good enough to actually test themselves,

260
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whether it's state or even national levels. Yeah, it's at

261
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the end of the day, it's what have you built

262
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and what can you try to show off today? And

263
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I think full circle, that's that's that's what kept me,

264
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kept me coming back.

265
00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:51.559
So coming back to performance, at what point in your

266
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performance did you recognize that you were struggling internally and

267
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that it was impacting your game? Well? Where did you

268
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see it?

269
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I think that's where it's so difficult. It wasn't impacting

270
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my performance. Still, I still was so I I was

271
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so distraught. Let's just say that. I think at the

272
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end of the day, it's just a game, right to us,

273
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It's much more than that, right. But I wrote a

274
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letter to doctor Otella just explaining what I was feeling.

275
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No more than two days later, I got a call

276
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from a Virginia random phone and it was him. We

277
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chatted for about an hour and it was just like, okay,

278
00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:41.799
well that that's special, right. But at the end of

279
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the day he did say he's like, okay, you're a gamer.

280
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Like he knows a lot of guys that suffer in

281
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the hotel room. But when they're at least warming up

282
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on the range or they at least have something to

283
00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:56.639
control on that first t they do calm down. And

284
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I have felt that, at least in my studies, I

285
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found that of falling into flow, falling into the zone,

286
00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:06.360
that is a place of ultimate control. So I will

287
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say I think even beyond that three percent three percent victory,

288
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of the three percent win, the three percent success, I

289
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think having that control over something that built, at least

290
00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:19.480
when it counts, is really rewarding.

291
00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:27.320
Yeah. Yeah, and how how did it? How did it

292
00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:30.919
present itself during year round or did did it not?

293
00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:37.559
It was just pre and post round that you were struggling. Yeah,

294
00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:40.639
but well, when you were playing golf, you are totally

295
00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:41.120
in it.

296
00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:46.279
Pre and post. Between the first team and the eighteenth green,

297
00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:50.600
there there might be the classic we call it arousal.

298
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At least stay away from anxiety, because that kind of

299
00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:57.960
has a negative connotation. When you're up, when you're ready,

300
00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:01.039
when you're you're in a state that is a little elevated,

301
00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:05.480
calling it higher arousal. I was just ready, you know.

302
00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:10.240
I think most great golfers in those moments understand what

303
00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:13.440
understands what takes them to the very best, and they're

304
00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:17.160
able to channel that. But at least for me, and

305
00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:19.960
I think at least in Rotell's terms, He's like, yeah,

306
00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:22.960
there's there's a lot of guys out there, and I think,

307
00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:28.359
without naming too many names, some very large, like big

308
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:32.319
time guys. He was like, hey, I have examples. I'm

309
00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:36.720
not entirely sure if I could share exactly the names,

310
00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:41.359
but he basically in twenty thirteen twenty fourteen listed five

311
00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:43.880
of maybe the top thirty in the world. He's like,

312
00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:47.960
these individuals off the course. They're not sleeping, they're not

313
00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:51.319
eating that, they're just not they're in the same category

314
00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:55.960
as you. WHOA, Yeah, I.

315
00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.880
Can't name names. Huh, I don't. I don't think you should.

316
00:18:01.319 --> 00:18:03.519
I don't want to push on that.

317
00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:07.680
Yeah yeah, yeah. It's one of those where I think

318
00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:11.640
I just want to remain his trust. But also they're

319
00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:15.519
just they're not relevant on tour anymore, so I don't Okay.

320
00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:23.759
Okay, all right, so now you you've decided that, you know,

321
00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:28.759
as we progress here, you're in college and you're really

322
00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:33.359
struggling pre imposed round, but you're totally locked in when

323
00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:34.039
you're playing.

324
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:40.400
Did you reach the flow state when you were playing?

325
00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:46.359
Did you find times that in rounds or moments? And

326
00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:49.720
to me, I guess with flow state, it's all reflective.

327
00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:52.200
It's not like, hey, I'm in the flow state right now,

328
00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:55.319
we write you can't it doesn't work. You look back

329
00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:57.720
and went, oh, I was really locked in there.

330
00:18:58.039 --> 00:19:03.079
Yeah. Yeah, there's without being braggadocious, there's there's one moment

331
00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:05.279
that I okay, okay.

332
00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:07.519
You're here, you're a soapbox, come.

333
00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:10.799
On, okay. It was it was one of our bigger

334
00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:13.240
tournaments in high school, basically the tournament to get into

335
00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:17.519
your state tournament. It's call it regional and you know,

336
00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:19.640
four or five holes left, I was told by my

337
00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:21.759
coach it's like, hey, no more mistakes and we're going

338
00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:23.319
to make it. You know, I've always been on a

339
00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:26.000
really solid you know, I've always been on a really

340
00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:29.319
solid team, and I've been lucky enough to get to

341
00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:33.200
that state final, really know, through my through not through

342
00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:35.799
my doing, but through a couple of really great players

343
00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:39.200
that I got to play with. But about four holes left,

344
00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:42.680
I was told that, you know, gave myself four really

345
00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:46.000
good three really good looks, no birdies, even through those

346
00:19:46.039 --> 00:19:50.759
three and my coach comes up. He's like, okay, John,

347
00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:54.759
you know eighteen here is a straightaway five sixty. He's

348
00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:57.039
not telling me this, but he's like, all he said

349
00:19:57.160 --> 00:20:01.440
was eagle or we lose, and I'm like, cool. Often

350
00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:02.440
that's a.

351
00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:05.680
Tremendous amount of pressure during a round. I would think

352
00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:10.440
it was your scorecard. When you're playing. It's like all

353
00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.039
I need is two more pars and I have my

354
00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:15.359
best round ever and you have two quadruple bogies.

355
00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:20.119
Right in hindsight, I think it was great coaching because

356
00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:24.200
I never really would have strategically gone for it. If

357
00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:28.160
you understand, like you play a hole differently, if you

358
00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:32.119
know that there is something that needs to happen. But

359
00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:35.079
I only reference it because it is the deepest I've

360
00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:38.319
ever gotten. I have had a few really good rounds,

361
00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:41.240
but at least the people that I've interviewed have had

362
00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:44.079
most of the clients that I have that are D one,

363
00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:47.400
two of them have fifty eights, well, fifty eight and

364
00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:50.759
fifty nine, and I just like, okay, give me three

365
00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:52.839
hours on that. I want to hear everything about it.

366
00:20:53.799 --> 00:20:57.079
But basically I got over the ball and everything just disappeared.

367
00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:01.319
I got over it, and I do not remember. You know,

368
00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:03.599
all I remember is essentially looking up and seeing the

369
00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:06.920
tight little drawl that went out there. And then I

370
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.240
got over a ball at you know, two nine. I

371
00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:11.319
knew it was a little juiced up, so I hit

372
00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:15.279
six HRN don't remember it. And then all of a sudden,

373
00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:16.640
I haven't.

374
00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:18.359
Remember the ballflight. You don't remember it was striking it.

375
00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:19.920
You just know that you had a six iron in

376
00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:20.319
your hand.

377
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:23.720
I got over the ball. I remember taking it back.

378
00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:27.480
I don't remember anything until seeing the ball flight, basically,

379
00:21:28.759 --> 00:21:31.599
and then you know, you get over this twenty footer.

380
00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:34.680
And you know, high school golf in Indiana, you have

381
00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:37.599
high school Indiana basketball. You have seven thousand people showing

382
00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:41.160
up for these small basketball games. There's really nobody watching us.

383
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:44.359
But for some reason, for some reason, there's like four

384
00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:46.440
or five deep for one hundred and fifty yards. I

385
00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:50.359
think everybody was just waiting. But yeah, I had a

386
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:53.559
twenty footer that really there's no way that I can

387
00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:57.960
explain it outside of this precognition of just no matter

388
00:21:58.119 --> 00:22:00.799
what stroke I put on, this probably going to go in.

389
00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:03.799
And you know, I don't remember hitting the putt. I

390
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:06.240
just remember seeing the ball skater towards the hole and

391
00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:10.160
just it went in. Right. That's just kind of how

392
00:22:10.599 --> 00:22:14.839
flow happens sometimes. And you know, one of the nine.

393
00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:17.920
So Michael set me high and say, it's kind of

394
00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:21.359
a difficult last name to say. He's poined the term

395
00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:24.799
flow basically in the seventies and eighties, and he does

396
00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:27.640
talk about in one of the prime characteristics of what

397
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:32.039
flow is, it's it's more or less a transformation of time.

398
00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:35.839
You lost the self consciousness and if you're really down there,

399
00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:40.799
the pieces of the action that you know how to complete,

400
00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:43.559
whether it's in the context of golf, sending a golf

401
00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:47.480
all somewhere, context of basketball, Steph Curry, you know what

402
00:22:47.559 --> 00:22:52.200
he can do. Really, there's no need for much rationalization

403
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:55.039
because you've already done it, you know how to do it,

404
00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:58.240
and it's just full trust in the moment in your

405
00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:02.000
ability to do it. So I reference that because frankly

406
00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:04.200
I don't remember it, and that that's really the only

407
00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:08.319
time I've blacked out. Most individuals that I do interview,

408
00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:12.839
at least for this study, have reported times where okay,

409
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:17.759
there's kind of a misunderstanding of timing ball slows down,

410
00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:20.039
ball speeds up. If you're a batter at the plate,

411
00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:23.720
ball slows down. Tennis returning a serve that's one hundred

412
00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:25.920
and twenty miles an hour, ball slows down a little bit.

413
00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:30.079
There's something about the state that really can slow and

414
00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:33.480
quick in time depending on the what you're doing.

415
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:35.599
So did you egle the hole?

416
00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:42.759
It get going? Yeah?

417
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:45.880
All right, let's bring it back to us. Okay, I mean,

418
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:49.119
I know this is a fascinating story and I really

419
00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:54.039
appreciate your honesty with this, But this podcast is how

420
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:59.079
are we going to help the recreational golfer, competitive golfer,

421
00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:02.880
and some off constructors. But how do we help them

422
00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:09.480
understand that it's possible to get into a flow state,

423
00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:16.440
it's possible to release the anxiety and perform better. What

424
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:18.480
is your approach? Where do you start with that?

425
00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:24.119
I initially start by interviewing. If it's a client, if

426
00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:26.039
it's a friend that's just trying to figure this out.

427
00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:31.119
I want to know the the nitty gritty, the detail,

428
00:24:31.559 --> 00:24:36.319
the thought, the emotion, the feeling of what you know

429
00:24:36.359 --> 00:24:40.559
your best performance has been. Ideally it's within the last

430
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:44.720
few months. Just something that we can recall accurately. I

431
00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:48.720
want to know the ingredients of success for you. How

432
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:53.319
do you feel, how do you think? How do you really?

433
00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:56.119
Are you high level motion? Low level motion where you're

434
00:24:56.119 --> 00:24:59.880
having fun? Are you scared? All of that? Within the

435
00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:04.079
viduals that might have other professional obligations, and we're still

436
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:07.839
talking golf, I'll ask, hey, if you were an executive,

437
00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:10.680
one point, take me through a deal talk, Take me

438
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:13.519
through negotiation, Take me through a time where you're in

439
00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:16.400
front of a lot of people. Take me through you know,

440
00:25:16.759 --> 00:25:19.680
complex decision making that you've been able to just right.

441
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:24.079
Flow exists in all of our professional endeavor really, if

442
00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:27.000
you do it a lot, It exists in your life.

443
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:30.599
If you have gone on any road trip that's north

444
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:32.799
of one hundred and twenty miles, if I asked you

445
00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:36.599
what happened on mile eighty two, most likely you couldn't

446
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:38.960
tell me really where that is or what's going on,

447
00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:41.119
or you know, the dog that was barking in the

448
00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:44.039
corner of the road, or the deer that may have

449
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:46.519
hopped out at you. You might remember if the deer

450
00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:48.599
hopped out, But for the most part, you're in this

451
00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:50.960
flow that is just there. You have trust in your

452
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:54.960
ability to operate the vehicle there. Golf is really no different,

453
00:25:55.240 --> 00:25:59.000
except it's quite a bit more precise, and I think

454
00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:02.799
that's where we get tripped up on. So really my

455
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:05.400
first question, more or less is okay, tell me about

456
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:07.720
this this this nine holes that you just kind of

457
00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:10.400
went down there? You know that it was different. What

458
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:13.680
was the quality of that? Uh? You know, the next

459
00:26:13.720 --> 00:26:16.960
step beyond that, I'm going to ask, Okay, well, tell

460
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:18.960
me about last week, tell me about last month, the

461
00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:21.759
last few times you've been out the average or even

462
00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:25.799
the bad And you know, in that conversation, in that interview,

463
00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:29.960
I'm kind of able to you know, dictate, Okay, this

464
00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:32.599
was there, you know, being in the bad performance of

465
00:26:32.680 --> 00:26:36.519
the average performance, this was hair in the great performance.

466
00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:39.119
What what are some of the difference? What are what

467
00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:41.279
are some of the qualities that might be in both buckets,

468
00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:44.680
but what's the difference between the two? And then really

469
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:47.319
from you know, from there, you know, second and third

470
00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:49.559
base of what we do is more or less building

471
00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:52.200
a process to try to feed those buckets that really

472
00:26:52.359 --> 00:26:53.240
have figured it out.

473
00:26:55.039 --> 00:27:00.160
So is your goal to get a better understanding in

474
00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:04.519
your studies and your PhD dissertation? Are you trying to

475
00:27:04.519 --> 00:27:07.079
get a better understanding of how people get there, or

476
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:09.400
are you trying to get to a place where you

477
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:12.720
can assist us in getting there.

478
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:17.400
I think the study, or at least the exercise that

479
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:21.119
I'm going through currently, is to better describe what it is.

480
00:27:21.880 --> 00:27:26.599
So believe it was in twenty twelve and twenty fifteen

481
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:28.799
there were two pretty large studies that came out that

482
00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:33.079
basically said, Okay, my zone or my flow, it's going

483
00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:36.319
to be very different than friend's flow, and very different

484
00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:39.359
than Steph Curry's flow, very different than Phil and Tiger, etc.

485
00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:43.759
It's a very unique tied to personality. Maybe not the

486
00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:47.240
personality that you might think of extroverted, introverted, friendly, not friendly,

487
00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:51.400
but personality is more or less a descriptor of just

488
00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:55.160
my difference to you, right. Yeah, at the end of

489
00:27:55.200 --> 00:28:00.839
the day, it's describing it better throughout my code consulting.

490
00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:03.680
Moving forward with that, Yeah, my goal is to try

491
00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:06.720
to help as many types of golfer, very types of

492
00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:11.119
performer as I can. But the study itself is just describing.

493
00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:14.920
I see, I see. But I find it interesting that

494
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:18.119
you want to bring your subject away from the golf

495
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:24.680
course into different environments. Yeah, I completely understood, like the

496
00:28:24.759 --> 00:28:27.960
driving analogy is phenomenal. It really it's like, oh, okay,

497
00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:31.119
I get that, and yeah, golf can be that way

498
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:36.640
as well. I think that I have had rounds where

499
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:40.519
when I look back on I'm like, oh, that's the

500
00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:44.559
flow state, Like I don't remember, you know, it was

501
00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:48.839
just happening. I wasn't thinking about it. It was just

502
00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:51.680
there and it just felt right, And I didn't try

503
00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:54.839
to analyze it at the time, because I guess if

504
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:57.119
you try to, hey, I'm in the float. You know,

505
00:28:57.160 --> 00:28:58.720
if you try to do that, you're going to just

506
00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:01.359
fall right out of it. I better not screw up

507
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:02.160
this next shot.

508
00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:06.200
But certainly I would even equate it, at least in

509
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:10.720
your experience being just over a thousand podcasts at this point,

510
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:16.200
listening back to your podcast, listening back to perhaps a guest,

511
00:29:16.839 --> 00:29:19.279
going down a line of thought to where you may

512
00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:21.799
have not expected it, going down a line of thought

513
00:29:21.799 --> 00:29:24.319
where you're like, Okay, where am I going to go now?

514
00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:26.400
Or what is the question I'm going to ask now,

515
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:30.839
and just hearing yourself respond with the answer, like maybe

516
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:34.920
even the textbook question that is up up next, you

517
00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:38.079
might not remember making that decision. I call that flow

518
00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:41.240
as well. I think that that is that is your zone,

519
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:43.480
because you know you have repetition in it.

520
00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:49.400
Right, I'm completely honest. Sometimes that I you know, I

521
00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:52.640
listened to the interview. I edit the interview. Not a

522
00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:55.279
lot of editing is just tightening things up and whatnot

523
00:29:55.319 --> 00:30:01.799
to make it publishable. But Okayaly, I'll listen back to

524
00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:06.200
an episode right just to check how things and I

525
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:09.039
hear things in it that I never heard when we

526
00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:13.240
were having the conversation. Initially, because I'm looking as we're

527
00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:20.079
having this conversation, I'm looking for doors opening up for

528
00:30:20.200 --> 00:30:23.599
the next question. I'm looking for opportunities to create the

529
00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:29.599
next question. And sometimes obviously and sometimes I miss what

530
00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:32.720
the person's point is, like, oh well, why did I

531
00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:34.559
How did I possibly miss that?

532
00:30:36.680 --> 00:30:36.920
Yeah?

533
00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:47.240
Yeah, So I didn't want to make this about my

534
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:53.000
doing interviews. I do want to make it more about

535
00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:59.200
how the average golfer can use to get into the

536
00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:05.160
focus and stay without questioning, you know, without rehashing that

537
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:09.519
last shot that you didn't like, you know, and staying

538
00:31:09.559 --> 00:31:14.480
focused on the next shot, without thinking about the mechanics

539
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:16.759
of it, because that really is going to that is

540
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:19.720
the bomb that's going to explode. If you start thinking

541
00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:22.359
about your mechanics, you're going to be in big trouble, right.

542
00:31:22.839 --> 00:31:26.759
I think the illustration that I use that is probably

543
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:31.079
been most relatable is if I'm in the room with somebody,

544
00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:34.799
I'll have a little red rubber ball, and I'll toss

545
00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:37.680
that rubber ball at them. I'll have them toss it back.

546
00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:39.799
We might toss it back and forth without me even

547
00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:44.000
giving any proper whatsoever, and you know, after a few tosses,

548
00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:46.480
I'll get the rubber ball back and I'll essentially ask

549
00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:52.000
what about your ability or what about that movement? Were

550
00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:55.440
you questioning? What about that moment did you have trust in?

551
00:31:56.119 --> 00:31:59.160
Why did you think that that release point, with that tempo,

552
00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:02.880
with that feed is going to be perfect? How did

553
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:06.759
you assume that? How did you trust that? Now? That

554
00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:10.599
is a much more simple, much more much less complex

555
00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:15.559
movement than any golf movement, even a two foot putt, right,

556
00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:18.240
It's it's always going to be tricky for us in

557
00:32:18.599 --> 00:32:23.720
some context. My best illustration for that is more or less,

558
00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:26.880
if you're so focused on the target and you understand

559
00:32:26.920 --> 00:32:30.599
that you have a relative ability to send a ball

560
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:34.559
in that direction, why are we exerting so much more

561
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:37.519
of a mental effort. Why are we exerting more mental

562
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:41.640
energy to this move when I've done it a few

563
00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:44.039
thousand times, You've done it a few thousand times. Every

564
00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:46.359
single person that is trying to get help with their

565
00:32:46.359 --> 00:32:49.240
golf swing or their golf game, they've done it enough

566
00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:52.640
to ask the question. So I have a belief that

567
00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:56.119
you know, we've we've invested a lot of time, We've

568
00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:59.799
invested a lot of energy into building whether it's this

569
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:02.279
you know, more or less a brain pathway or at

570
00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:05.799
least a pattern that we're able to send something or

571
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:10.000
able to swing in a relatively precise manner, to send

572
00:33:10.039 --> 00:33:14.279
something to a very distinct in small target. You know,

573
00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:18.039
that level of precision usually is not going to be

574
00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:22.920
friendly to over analysis. And this is another special thing

575
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:27.400
about flow. I believe it was late two thousands, early

576
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:31.039
twenty tens that they started talking about the physiological nature

577
00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:35.599
of what flow actually is. What happens the prefrontal shuts down,

578
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:38.519
we still have the same energy budget. We still have

579
00:33:38.599 --> 00:33:42.720
this budget that our brain is operating with. Right even

580
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:46.400
though the prefrontal, which is complex decision making, shuts down,

581
00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:49.319
we have this excess energy that essentially is able to

582
00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:53.759
go through that back two thirds and you know, without

583
00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:56.720
getting into the nitty gritty, because frankly, I don't have

584
00:33:57.039 --> 00:34:02.480
the physiological knowledge to actually quote all the but that

585
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:05.039
extra power really turns on a bit of a superman

586
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:08.119
in us. Because at the end of the day, if

587
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:10.719
you ever have any time on SAM or track Man

588
00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:13.719
or any of the shot, the more or less the

589
00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:17.480
launch monitors, any of that data, you'll know that this

590
00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:21.519
is a very precise game. And if you are accustomed

591
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:24.400
to this, to your draw it means that most likely

592
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:27.519
that face is just a little open, maybe half degree

593
00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:30.199
to and a half degrees, it means that your path

594
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:34.440
is either relatively flat or maybe coming in zero point

595
00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:38.800
five end out. That's a very precise pattern that we're

596
00:34:38.840 --> 00:34:42.920
able to hit time in and time out. So as

597
00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:46.800
I interview individuals with flow, when I if I interview

598
00:34:48.039 --> 00:34:50.599
the topic of your best round, ever, there isn't a

599
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:53.679
lot of thought. But how can that be? There's really

600
00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:56.559
there's still a presence of a very precise movement.

601
00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:06.119
You said, turn on superman. I want to know what

602
00:35:06.159 --> 00:35:07.880
you mean by that and how we can do it.

603
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:12.559
Most studies indicate that focus has to be external. I

604
00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:16.119
think that's rather obvious, at least when we describe that

605
00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:18.920
in the golf context. If I'm thinking about my shoulder,

606
00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:22.440
but think about rotation by thinking about moving onto that

607
00:35:22.519 --> 00:35:25.639
left foot, that right foot, if you're left handed, it's

608
00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:28.960
probably not a great thing. I at least in the

609
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:31.719
interviews that I've done, there can be one feel or

610
00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:35.480
one swing thought that Okay, we can squeak through that.

611
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:39.440
That's great. You know, I'm coaching to try to take

612
00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:41.920
these people to very lee levels or trying to take

613
00:35:41.960 --> 00:35:46.400
them into the version of themselves. I still think that

614
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:50.400
the swing thought is a bit of a bandit. I

615
00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:54.000
think that if we're able to operate just as we

616
00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:57.400
are in the very best moments of our golf game,

617
00:35:57.880 --> 00:36:03.039
there tends to be mindlessness now with its unique It

618
00:36:03.079 --> 00:36:06.280
could be one swing thought, it could be one feel.

619
00:36:06.920 --> 00:36:10.159
But for the most part, I really want individuals to

620
00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:12.480
take a look at Okay, if I'm on the range

621
00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:15.599
getting ready for a round, I'm getting warmed up. But

622
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:18.599
also the intention of your warm up towards the end

623
00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:21.199
really should be there's a target out there at one

624
00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:23.760
hundred and fifty yards, I'm just going to get over

625
00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:27.880
the ball with my express interest, my only thought being

626
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:30.679
the target. Because we really are only able to think

627
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:34.159
about one thing at one time, and the intention, or

628
00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:37.679
at least the presence of that last thought right before

629
00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:41.199
you pull the trigger usually is kind of the dictator

630
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:46.239
of what's happening. The subconscious really can't understand negatives or nose.

631
00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:50.360
So if I'm sitting over and you know a cape

632
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:53.199
style part three, you know, you see a lot of

633
00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:56.039
those with Pete Tye where there's just this water line

634
00:36:56.039 --> 00:36:58.639
that's going kind of meandering to the right or meandering

635
00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:01.159
to the left for some reason. If we do hit

636
00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:03.800
in the water, relatively good players will hit it in

637
00:37:03.800 --> 00:37:06.880
the water right on that edge right. If they're struggle

638
00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:09.880
with the thought of do not go here, the subconscious

639
00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:13.840
can really only understand the essence of here, what is

640
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:16.559
do not go out in the water? Oh? Water right?

641
00:37:17.559 --> 00:37:20.679
I think it also come out in interviews that I've

642
00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:23.719
had with really really talented individuals that are able to

643
00:37:23.719 --> 00:37:28.000
play professionally. For the most part, their intention, the clarity

644
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:31.880
of their thought, is the dictator for pretty much everything

645
00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:36.079
outside of humidity, heat, wind change, getting the wrong number.

646
00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:39.599
In that sense, they don't tend to miss they're really

647
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:44.519
they're professionals. Right. The only real, large, large mistake that

648
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:47.519
you'll see is maybe a wrestling with thought at the end,

649
00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:53.199
right before we're pulling the trigger. Keep going, we keep going.

650
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:56.239
Okay, we're on something here.

651
00:37:56.480 --> 00:38:00.559
Yeah. At the end of the day, I think with

652
00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:03.239
your viewers, your listeners, if they really want to fall

653
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:06.320
into the flow, or at least experience one of their

654
00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:10.719
better performances, I would say, first, take note on what

655
00:38:10.840 --> 00:38:14.079
has already happened. What's the essence of me at my best?

656
00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:18.039
Right number two, when we're warming up, I would take

657
00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:20.880
a look at what can we do in a mindless

658
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:24.119
sense if I'm getting over the ball. What's the result

659
00:38:24.280 --> 00:38:27.880
when my intention, my focus is just that target, whether

660
00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:30.440
it's a two yard cut, five yard cut, you a

661
00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:32.360
nasty shot to the right, nasty shut to the left,

662
00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:37.440
let yourself just give your subconscious the wheel of okay,

663
00:38:37.719 --> 00:38:40.199
take control of this. At the end of the day,

664
00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:43.519
I do believe that when we no matter what level

665
00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:47.159
we play at, if we're confident in our ability to

666
00:38:47.199 --> 00:38:51.000
send it to hopefully a good destination, we're able to

667
00:38:51.039 --> 00:38:56.079
play relatively unfettered golf, whatever level it is. So I

668
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:59.199
always like to visualize heavily behind the ball. I like

669
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:01.679
to see the shot tracker, just as we see on

670
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:05.280
CBS or or on golf channel. I want to see that,

671
00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:07.239
and if I'm on the greens, I want to see

672
00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:10.840
that ball roll on that track right before I end it.

673
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:14.599
Jack Nicholas always said that his warm ups were basically

674
00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:18.079
to understand who did I bring today? Did I bring

675
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:19.880
the two yard cut? Did bring the three yard cut?

676
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:23.079
Did I bring the one yard drawl? Basically you'd say, okay,

677
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:25.199
I brought the two yard cut today, I'm going to

678
00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:27.599
go dance with the two yard cut, and he would

679
00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:30.559
stay committed to that shot. But I can almost guarantee

680
00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:33.320
you the essence of Nicholas's thought was, where am I

681
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:35.760
going with this? I'm a professional. I can send it

682
00:39:35.800 --> 00:39:39.360
to the direction or the distance that is required. The

683
00:39:39.400 --> 00:39:42.920
focus must be there. So for your viewers that have

684
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:46.519
played basketball or any target warriented game, if I'm at

685
00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:49.639
a dartboard, I'm focusing on that triple twenty, I'm probably

686
00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:51.920
If you're really good at darts, you're probably focusing on

687
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:55.159
a portion of that triple twenty. If you're really really

688
00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:58.679
good at basketball, you're probably focusing on that half inch

689
00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:02.880
front piece of the rim. You're not focused on anything internal?

690
00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:07.519
Why on earth will be focus internal and golf? Yeah?

691
00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:15.800
Yeah. We recently had Josh Xander on a couple months

692
00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:18.199
ago and do you know, Josh, do you know he

693
00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:22.440
is oh okay? And I've found this quote that I

694
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:25.440
presented to him and says, instead of focusing on twenty

695
00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:27.920
two percent of your game that isn't going right, take

696
00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:31.519
the glass half full approach and appreciate seventy eight percent

697
00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:34.199
of the game that's working for you that day. Yes,

698
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:37.639
have the awareness to play towards your.

699
00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:42.400
Strengths, right, that's right?

700
00:40:42.440 --> 00:40:45.320
And yeah, I mean I think that you may have

701
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:47.280
come up with the title of this episode about what

702
00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:49.360
can we achieve in a mindless state?

703
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:55.639
You know, how far can we go that the key

704
00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:02.039
in that mindless state is walking into the ball completely

705
00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:05.480
agnostic to what's happened before, what's happened, what hopefully is

706
00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:10.199
happening in front. Right. I think at the end of

707
00:41:10.199 --> 00:41:13.199
the day, we play a game that is rather drawn out.

708
00:41:13.320 --> 00:41:16.440
If you play competitively, you're going to have to more

709
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:18.440
or less be on the ball for forty eight or

710
00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:20.840
fifty four hours. Yes, you might be in the hotel room,

711
00:41:20.920 --> 00:41:23.800
you might be the restaurant, etc. But when you're on

712
00:41:23.800 --> 00:41:25.960
the golf course, you have to be locked in. It's

713
00:41:25.960 --> 00:41:27.400
going to be four and a half hours of that.

714
00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:30.440
Do that a few times in a row. A lot

715
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:33.320
of scarring, a lot of emotion, a lot of intensity

716
00:41:33.320 --> 00:41:35.599
can build up. But I think at the end of

717
00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:41.199
the day, flow is relatively agnostic to emotion. When we're

718
00:41:41.320 --> 00:41:44.639
operating at our very best, it's a bit of an

719
00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:51.159
emotionless process until that final put drops the car. Analogy

720
00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:55.239
even really talking to clients about their professional endeavors, when

721
00:41:55.239 --> 00:41:58.480
they're succeeding, when they're doing well, when they're getting things done,

722
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:02.840
it's just business usual. It's really not something that is

723
00:42:03.800 --> 00:42:07.000
an abnormal rollercoaster of events. That's not how you run

724
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:09.519
a business. That's not how you lead people. You have

725
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:13.960
to lead people through consistency, relentless consistency. I think at

726
00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:16.760
the end of the day, with golf, it is the

727
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:22.360
ultimate challenge on staying more or less agnostic emotionally. As

728
00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:27.320
it's so precise. We will have you know, misses and yeah,

729
00:42:28.280 --> 00:42:30.880
please don't quote me, but it was a legend, legend

730
00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:33.079
of the game. I think it was Hogan or Hagan

731
00:42:33.880 --> 00:42:39.039
that said, basically, he budgeted four bad swings into a round.

732
00:42:39.559 --> 00:42:41.599
Every single round. He budgeted the fact that I am

733
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:46.199
completely an acceptance of four essentially gimmes. It's not that

734
00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:49.960
he's re hitting or anything, but he essentially said, hey,

735
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:53.679
if I make a bad swing or just chop it up,

736
00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:57.559
cops are doing business right. And you know, any of

737
00:42:57.559 --> 00:42:59.480
those guys that made a name for themselves back in

738
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:06.000
the day relentlessly incredible ball strikers, they just don't really nice. Uh.

739
00:43:06.239 --> 00:43:08.360
And you know, for that kind of player to say,

740
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:10.440
you know what, at four times, I'm going to give

741
00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:13.039
myself grace. Every single round, I'm gonna give myself grace

742
00:43:13.079 --> 00:43:16.320
four times. So I think it's it's kind of looking

743
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:19.400
in the mirror at whatever stage you're at. If you're

744
00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:22.840
a competitive, you know, tour pro, if you're a recognercial player,

745
00:43:22.840 --> 00:43:25.000
if you're a mid am, if you're a college player,

746
00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:29.639
probably more than four times you're going to let yourself down, right.

747
00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:32.000
Yeah, you definitely need to budget a little bit more

748
00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:36.559
than four. Yeah, and for for you know, the people

749
00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:39.800
that I play with and at my level, it's like

750
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:46.000
budget budget for one per hole and then leave your

751
00:43:46.199 --> 00:43:47.719
and be nice to yourself.

752
00:43:48.199 --> 00:43:52.159
Yeah, I think the uh maybe a good way to

753
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:54.840
wrap up what flow is and how to fall into

754
00:43:54.880 --> 00:43:59.639
it is relentless acceptance, because I think the greatest sin

755
00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:02.679
is it relates to performance psychology in the game of

756
00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:07.679
golf is allowing one swing to impact multiple, one situation

757
00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:11.079
to impact multiple, one bad balance to impact multiple. We

758
00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:15.920
play an imperfect game in imperfect air on imperfect surfaces.

759
00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:21.320
So if we don't have an acceptance attitude, it's going

760
00:44:21.400 --> 00:44:23.719
to be a little harder than it should be. And

761
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:26.519
I will say that maybe some of your listeners, it

762
00:44:26.639 --> 00:44:30.679
takes time. Over time. You know, if you have the

763
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:34.119
attitude of acceptance, tomorrow, there's still going to be frustration,

764
00:44:34.239 --> 00:44:36.119
There's still going to be headwinds there, it's still going

765
00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:39.079
to be difficulties, But in time, it's more or less

766
00:44:39.079 --> 00:44:42.280
a rationalization that you know, this is the better path.

767
00:44:43.400 --> 00:44:46.320
I always like to say that in certain context, released

768
00:44:46.320 --> 00:44:50.519
in golf context, that mental toughness really is a rationalization

769
00:44:50.599 --> 00:44:53.480
that this is the best path. I'm not going I'm

770
00:44:53.519 --> 00:44:55.920
gonna choose not to respond to this in a highly

771
00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:58.880
emotional state, because I know that a highly emotional state

772
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:02.199
is going to impact next, maybe even impacts one after that.

773
00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:05.400
So I think at the end of the day, flow

774
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:10.159
is all about relentless consistency and relentless acceptance.

775
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:18.920
Wow, I got to write that one down an acceptance,

776
00:45:20.719 --> 00:45:23.840
and I love the line flow is agnostic to emotion.

777
00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:31.159
That's really powerful stuff. Maybe that's the title of episode.

778
00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:37.159
I don't know. So are you publishing your findings and

779
00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:40.000
your work online? How do we learn more about what

780
00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:40.400
you're doing?

781
00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:45.840
John, late May, early June. I'll have it available twenty

782
00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:47.480
twenty five, Yes, twenty twenty five.

783
00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:48.440
It's a podcast.

784
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:51.960
We have to say that, so I haven't gotten used

785
00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:56.480
to that. Yeah. In short order, I'm going to have

786
00:45:56.519 --> 00:45:59.960
some interviews that will be rather interesting. I do believe

787
00:46:00.079 --> 00:46:02.400
that a lot of the commentary there is going to

788
00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:04.239
be a little bit more academic, but I'm going to

789
00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:08.039
try to kind of more or less summarize it in

790
00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:10.760
a readable fashion and have that available on my website

791
00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:15.679
probably probably late June, early July. At that point, I

792
00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:18.480
can't say that I'm writing anything currently. I'm mainly working

793
00:46:18.519 --> 00:46:24.440
with clients, is it currently? But yeah, I hope to

794
00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:26.960
get some more information about the findings because I do

795
00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:32.280
believe that in its individual nature it is. Really it's

796
00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:35.239
still at this point academia is still kind of stretched

797
00:46:35.239 --> 00:46:38.119
their head. It's okay, we know that this is here,

798
00:46:38.199 --> 00:46:40.800
but we can't really describe what it is and why

799
00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:43.199
is it or how do I experience it or how

800
00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:46.440
does somebody else experience it. So hoping to bring a

801
00:46:46.440 --> 00:46:49.239
little bit more clarity to that. But as it relates

802
00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:53.800
to golf, I just hope to help individual shoot some

803
00:46:53.840 --> 00:46:54.800
lower scores here soon.

804
00:46:56.199 --> 00:46:59.719
Well, I really appreciate the journey that we took with

805
00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:03.840
you in how we started out for your golf journey

806
00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:07.880
and then brought it to your studies and your thesis

807
00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:14.519
really fascinating and thank you and best of luck man,

808
00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:16.000
and let's stay in touch.

809
00:47:16.599 --> 00:47:18.440
Absolutely, thank you so much for having me Fred