June 5, 2026

Golf Courses Don’t Need To Be Harder To Be Better with Course Architect | Mulligans

Golf Courses Don’t Need To Be Harder To Be Better with Course Architect | Mulligans
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This week on the Mulligans episode, Fred Greene sits down with David McLay Kidd to talk about course architecture. Quick reminder: Golf Smarter airs archive favorites every Friday, and new episodes of Corrected Mistakes with Josh Karp drop every Tuesday.

For exclusive content and first access check out Corrected Mistakes on Substack: https://substack.com/@correctedmistake

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Hey there everyone.

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It's Friday, which means a special Bulligan's episode, but first

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on Tuesday, writer Tom Coin joins me on correct the mistakes.

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If you love The Golfers Journal or any of Tom's books,

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you won't want to miss that conversation. And today we

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have Golf Courses Don't need to be Harder to be

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better with course architect David McLay kid. See you on Tuesday.

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Here's the episode, Golf Smarter Premium number five hundred and six,

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published on September fifteenth, twenty fifteen. Golf Courses Don't need

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to be Harder to be better with designer of Bandon

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Dune's David McLay Kidd. This is Golf Smarter Premium. Here's

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your host, Fred Green. Welcome to the Golf Smarter Podcast.

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David, thanks very much. Fred, it's great to be here.

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It is great to have you here. We had an

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interesting introduction to one another out at TPC Stonebray, which

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is one of your courses.

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It is yep.

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It was opened back in two thousand and eight, I believe,

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and the timing was a little challenging.

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For the real estate market.

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They were maybe a year or two late, but they

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seem to be doing great now, the projects really thriving,

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the clubhouse is open and the real estate selling. And

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I hadn't played it in a couple of years, and

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I went back, and you know, I think self doubt

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is one of the things all designers suffer from, So

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having not played it in a couple of years, I

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went back and was thrilled. You know, the course is

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great fun to play and is in great condition, and

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everyone seemed to have a good time and I loved it.

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It was great to be back after having missed it

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for a couple of years.

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Actually, I had played it when it first opened as well,

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in a press event, and it is definitely a more

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mature course. That was it a public course when it

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first opened.

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I don't believe so. Well, it wasn't as part of

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the TPC network. So if you're a TPC member, I

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think there's something like twenty seven or so golf courses

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in that network, you can play it. But I'm not

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sure you can play it if you're a member of

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the public and you just call up and book a

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tea time. I think you have to either get a

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referral through your own club or be part of the

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TPC network.

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Yeah, yeah, I think you do. But it's a fascinating course.

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It's not your normal golf course that runs back and

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forth and back and forth. You've got a lot of

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work to do to get through that golf.

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Course, you do.

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I mean, the average golf course probably covers you know,

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one hundred and fifty acres. Maybe that golf course covers

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three times that. I mean, it really rolls across those

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Hayward Hills in all sorts of unusual and unpredictable directions. Thankfully,

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the owner, a Hong Kong Chinese family, had many thousands

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of acres from which to choose from, and they allowed

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me to wander across those Hayward Hills pretty much much

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in any direction I wanted. The real challenge was getting

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all the permits together and then building it.

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Why was that the challenge because just politics in the area.

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I probably politics.

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You know, there was a red legged frog and the

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Alameda whipsnake are both inhabitants of that area, so we

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probably rightly so had to jump through a lot of

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hoops to make sure that we protected both those species,

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and of course the wetlands and waterways of the Great

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State of California. So the developer spent many extra millions

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making sure that all of those things were protected, and

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I think that shows and the results the golf course

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blends in very naturally into its surroundings.

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Wow, those are two words that I've not heard associated

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with California in a long time. Wetlands and waterways.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, well even back then in two thousand and six

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and seven when we were building it, I would scratch

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my head and say, this is a wetland where a

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thousand feet above the bay on a slope I could

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probably ski on in Oregon, And this is a waterway wetland.

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But the definition is definitely conservative.

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Put it that way, Yeah, say the least. So when

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you're approached by I get you said you were approached

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by the owners? Did they know at that point it's

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a TPC course. How did TPC get involved?

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The owners hired a developer called Mike Lettinger, And Mike

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Lettinger is a guy from Washington, DC and he had

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spent the early part of his career developing the TPC

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courses with Dean Beeman and the PGA Tour, and so

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Mike had an existing strong relationship with the TPC network,

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and so once the course opened, or before it opened,

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Mike brought in the tour and asked them if this

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course was of a caliber that they would consider adding

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it to their network, and they quickly did. It was

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part of the network long before opening. Very interesting, So

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that was for me, that was that was a really

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cool thing. You know, there aren't, as I say, there's

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less than thirty I believe TPC courses in the United States.

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So and all of those, there aren't thirty architects, there

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are many of them have done more than one. So

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there are may be twenty on golf course designers who

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have that on the resume.

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And I get to be one of them.

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Well, there's a couple of things on your resume that

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make you stand out, going, oh, he's the guy that

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did that.

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This is not only to say.

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Yeah, this is not the only golf course that you

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have that on your resume. And we'll get to that

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in a minute. But I want to I want to start, Well,

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we've already started, so I want to continue this point

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by talking about how you became a golf course architect.

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That was it in your blood? Was it in your head? Where?

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How did this start?

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Well?

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I was literally conceived and born on a golf course,

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or very close to My father is a golf course

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superintendent or a head greenkeeper as it would be called

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back in the old Country where I'm from. And so

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my father worked on a golf course from fourteen years

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old and married his childhood's sweetheart, and he became the

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youngest head greenkeeper in a generation at least, if not longer.

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He was the head greenkeeper at Glasgow Golf Club in

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his early twenties, which is the ninth oldest golf course

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on earth, and he lived with his family on the

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side of one of the golf holes in a house

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owned by the golf club from the seventeen hundreds. And

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I was born and raised there.

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Are you okay?

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Yeah? I tripped over the phone?

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You get silent? I was like, are you okay?

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Yeah?

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Yeah, tripped over the phone. Okay.

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So did you tag along with your dad the whole time?

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Did you? Like know, from the beginning, it's like I

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want to just be here with my daddy.

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Yeah, that's pretty much it.

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I wanted to, you know, I from an early age,

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my dad's getting up at four in the morning to

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go out on the golf course. And working all the

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daylight hours in the summertime and wintertime, although there a

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lot less and very often he's taking me with him.

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So from and that was appealing to you, I mean,

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really well, hanging out.

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With my dad was not as a teenager, I can't

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I don't.

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Think I was up at I don't think I was

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up at that time in the morning. But from a

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very young age I was out raking bunkers and flyme

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mowing banks and edging bunkers and mowing greens. As I

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was older, and even as a teenager, you know that

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work ethic was burned into me. I mean, I don't

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think I got the luxury of lane in bed till noon.

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I was told from maybe about twelve years old, if

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I wanted to buy something, then I had to earn

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the money to go buy it, and earning the money

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meant helping my dad on the golf course. So I

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was out there doing it, and I did I love it?

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I'm not sure.

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I sort of said, oh my goodness, I'm desperate to

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get up before the dawn and go great bunkers. I

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just saw as that this was what we did, This

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is what my father earned his living at and I

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saw it as a rewarding thing that was that he

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enjoyed and I could enjoy with him, and I loved

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spending time with him. Then and now as I grew older,

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I realized that the maintenance of golf courses.

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Was only one part of it. There were other parts

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to the.

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The process that created a golf course, design and construction

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being the other two main ones. So when I explored

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those two it my father's behest, I discovered that I

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absolutely loved the creative part of it even more than

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I loved the maintenance part of it. And so that's

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what took me down that path.

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Do you remember times as a kid at night at home,

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the family after dinner all together, sitting around, whether you

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were sitting by the fire and reading, you were watching TV,

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whatever the family activity at night was. Did you pick

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your dad's brain about groundskeeping or did you talk about

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golf design both?

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You know, my.

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Mother has never played golf, and my sister barely played,

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and she's three and a half years younger. So as

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a kid quite a bit younger, where I heard it

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all was the frequent family journeys to other golf courses

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because my dad's closest friends were other greenkeepers. It was

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George Brown at Turnbury, or Walter Woods, s and Andrews,

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or Chris Kennedy at Hag's Castle. It was these guys

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are legends in that world, and you know, my dad

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is one of them. So as a kid, I would

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spend the weekend staying at somebody else's house and I'd

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be listening to these adults debate their profession that they

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are incredibly passionate about, and they would argue till the

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early hours with a bottle of whiskey about poe control

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or how to make the greens faster or truer, or

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whether the stimpmeter was a useful application in their profession,

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or whether a committee should be structured this way or

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that way, or a million different things, none of which

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I at the time understood what I was learning until

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I was in the profession myself, and I could recall

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back to these conversations that had gone on, and recall

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back to the arguments for and against any particular course

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of action. And it wasn't until ten fifteen, twenty years

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later that I thought, Wow, that was quite the education

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I was getting.

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Oh, well, it's nice that you did appreciate it eventually.

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Eventually, yeah, But even at the time I just loved

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hanging out with these guys and absorbing their passion for

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golf and golf courses, and of course, to them, as

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with many golfers, the history and traditions of the game

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were paramount. So each of these people, these men appreciated

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that old Tom Morris had designed the course one hundred

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years before, or James Braid in the Great Triumvirate had

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designed Glen Eagle's seventy years before, which is where my

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father had been. So I heard all about the course

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of time and golf and architecture and tradition and the

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different styles of architecture, and so all of this was

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being bled into me slowly over the course of a childhood.

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And were you playing golf at all too? Are you

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just cleaning up? You know?

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I wasn't playing that much golf. Here's a strange rule.

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Many golf courses in Scotland do not allow the greenkeeper

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even to play the golf course, certainly back then, and

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they certainly don't allow the family of the greenkeeper to

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be out there playing on a member on a private

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member's course. So early in my childhood. No, I did

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not get to play the very golf course that my

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father was in charge of. He did, but there are

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plenty of other superintendents even today that are not allowed

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to play the course without special permission, which is a

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hang up to the class system of the United Kingdom,

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one of the reasons I prefer it here in the

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United States.

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So I guess.

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It wasn't until my early teenage years that my father

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left a private club and he moved to a commercial project,

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the Glen Eagles Resort in the middle of Scotland, and

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there was little class hang up. So there he was

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in charge of all the golf courses and with his permission,

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I could play wherever and whenever I wanted. So from

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about thirteen or fourteen years old, I could play a

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lot more, and myself and my best friend would play,

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you know, thirty six holes after school in the summertime,

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which for those of you that have been to Scotland

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in midsummer, I know that that's possible. It doesn't get

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dark till eleven o'clock at night, and you can play

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golf in two and a.

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Half hours, two and a half hours easily.

248
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Really, really, what's the difference.

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Well, you're not dilly dallying, you're not in a cart,

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you're not hitting.

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It in the in the weeds.

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You know, you're playing golf and you're playing quickly. I mean,

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it amazes me when people even a four hour round.

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When I got a little older, I thought four hours

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to play golf. That's forever. The thought of playing in

256
00:13:37.879 --> 00:13:40.879
five hours just kills you. Yeah, you know, four hours

257
00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:42.720
is what it takes to play the old course on

258
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the busiest day. So if you're going out at four

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or five o'clock in the evening on the Prince's Course

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at Glen Eagle's which no longer exists, which from the

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teas we played was you know, fivey eight hundred yards,

262
00:13:58.240 --> 00:13:59.960
we could easily play that in two and a half hour.

263
00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:07.360
Wow, wait, are you inferring that rounds take longer here

264
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because people are spending time looking for their balls.

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And they can do or they just have this pre

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shot routine that takes five minutes on every shot.

267
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And they don't do that in Scotland.

268
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Not so much. Not so much now you're.

269
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Being Now you're being the elitist that you're doing.

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Well.

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I'm definitely a golfing elitist. We have a charity event

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here in Bend, Oregon, where I live, where they do

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00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:35.919
a golf marathon. You have to play a hundred holes

274
00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:38.320
in a single day. You'd be amazed how many people.

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00:14:38.759 --> 00:14:41.600
Almost everyone says the same thing, because they're playing one

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hundred golf holes, which is what five and a half

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rounds of golf in a single day. There's no pre

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00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:50.919
shot routine, there's no worrying about exactly where to hit it.

279
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There's just run up to the ball, take a stance,

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hit the ball. Everybody says, you know, I played much

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better than I expected. Interesting, that's because you aren't thinking

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about it and you just hit it. And after two

283
00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:06.879
or three rounds like that in a single day, the

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00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:08.960
last couple of rounds could be the best golf you've

285
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ever played because you stop worrying, just hit it. Your

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body already knows what to do. Just get your mind

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out of the way.

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I had a friend who did one of those charity events,

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and he was in the high eighties as far as

290
00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:23.679
how many holes that he had played that day, and

291
00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:26.039
there were people that were finished, and he was like,

292
00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:29.440
how did you finish that much far ahead of me?

293
00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:32.039
And he says, because I played multiple balls on the

294
00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:35.320
par threes. It's like, you're kidding, you can do that.

295
00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:39.279
Oh so they've played three balls and said, well, that's

296
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three holes out of the way.

297
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Yeah, exactly.

298
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I'm not sure that counts.

299
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They told him it did. He was frustrated. He was like, no,

300
00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:48.440
I'm going to play one ball every hole. I'll be

301
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here until I can't play anymore.

302
00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:52.799
Yeah, and he couldn't think one bar.

303
00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:54.720
You can take a bucket of balls with you and

304
00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:56.519
if you hit one in the crap, just retee it

305
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and hit it again.

306
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I'll give you that.

307
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But you can't play three balls out and say well

308
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I just played three holes.

309
00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:02.679
I don't think that counts.

310
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That's against it.

311
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Is your dad still around?

312
00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:10.039
Oh yeah, oh not only is he still around, He's

313
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still very much involved in my business.

314
00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:15.120
Oh yeah, only only today.

315
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He spent the day at a course where finishing up

316
00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:22.039
in London and was working with the superintendent and the

317
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:25.879
owner and helping them with the growing. They had their

318
00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:29.559
first little preview event at the weekend. My father was

319
00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:32.080
over there at five in the morning with the superintendents,

320
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helping them set the course up and set pin placements

321
00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:39.080
and do all of that stuff. So he absolutely loves

322
00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:42.360
it as much today as he did twenty or forty

323
00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:42.879
years ago.

324
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Well, of course he does because he's doing it for

325
00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:47.120
and with his son.

326
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Yeah, I'll say with not for, he wouldn't appreciate that.

327
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Definitely with sorry Pop.

328
00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:57.559
But he's got to be very proud of you.

329
00:16:58.919 --> 00:17:00.759
I think he gets a kick out the fact that,

330
00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.240
you know, he started working on a golf course in

331
00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:06.640
the early sixties and you know it wasn't allowed and

332
00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:10.079
to play the courses that he was maintaining, and you

333
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:14.640
know was a how can I put it if you

334
00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:19.279
can imagine the class system a snooty club in the

335
00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:22.920
United Kingdom, And now I get invited to go play

336
00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:26.000
those places, and you know, the whole thing has flipped

337
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on its head in a single generation. I certainly love

338
00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:31.240
the fact that he gets to see that.

339
00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:34.319
Well, it sounds like he hasn't told you he's proud

340
00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:36.920
of you. We're proud of you, David. We're doing a

341
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:37.759
great job.

342
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:39.440
Well, I keep trying.

343
00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:45.119
Let's talk about your design philosophy. You told a wonderful

344
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story at the dinner, a TPC stone break that I

345
00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:51.119
want to try to get you to repeat about what

346
00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:51.759
you see.

347
00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:55.200
Oh, you have to give me more of a hint

348
00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:57.559
than that. I can't remember what I said.

349
00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:01.039
What do you see when you're looking out there? Right?

350
00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:02.839
You're telling a story about the mission.

351
00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:07.279
I can't exactly remember the story, but you mean you

352
00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:09.960
made it that night? Yeah, I probably. I don't think

353
00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:12.039
I made it up, but I definitely was on a roll.

354
00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:13.920
You know, I.

355
00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:19.599
See a golf course as an opportunity for grown men

356
00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:24.119
to go explore the way they did when they were children,

357
00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:27.359
and that seems to be something that is lost in

358
00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:28.799
the modern world we live in.

359
00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:30.880
You know, the middle.

360
00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:34.000
Aged man is responsible and I keep saying man, but

361
00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:35.920
it could be women. But we know what a male

362
00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:39.000
dominated sport this is. You know, they're working hard, they're

363
00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:43.279
you know, providing for their family. They're worrying about today,

364
00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:46.799
They're worrying about tomorrow and the market and their pension

365
00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:49.440
and this and that and a million other things. And

366
00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:52.960
they don't get to be children anymore. And golf is

367
00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:56.119
one of the pursuits where they can kind of regress

368
00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:59.599
for a few hours and be more childlike. And part

369
00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:03.720
of that experience allows me to allow them to explore again,

370
00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:08.279
to go across a piece of land and crest a

371
00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:11.359
hill or around a pond, or disappear behind a tree and

372
00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:14.880
see what's there and be at one with nature and

373
00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:19.359
to explore. And if golf loses that, then it loses

374
00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:23.200
its core. That loses something absolutely essential to the sport.

375
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:26.599
It's not just about standing on a tea and aiming

376
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:29.160
at a flag away in the distance. It's more than that,

377
00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:32.119
and that exploration of the landscape is key to it.

378
00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:33.880
You know, eighteen.

379
00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:36.960
Wonderful individual golf holes that play up and down like

380
00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:40.680
soldiers is not a golf experience. You want it to

381
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:44.440
be something like abandoned June's or Stonebray, where the golf

382
00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:48.319
course meanders and is in some respects you can see

383
00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:50.240
it in front of you, and then in another turn

384
00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:51.640
you don't know where you're going.

385
00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:52.200
You're lost.

386
00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:56.519
You're having to scratch your head and decipher some clues

387
00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:58.960
ahead of you to try and figure out what's coming next.

388
00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:02.279
And that's all part of the wonderful experience of golf

389
00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:06.039
that exist in no other sport. There's nothing else in

390
00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:08.839
the world of sport like it, and we can't lose it.

391
00:20:10.279 --> 00:20:13.519
So true, it's an interesting perspective on that do you

392
00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:16.880
have a design strategy that you carry with you from

393
00:20:17.079 --> 00:20:21.240
project to project or is it unique to each project?

394
00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:27.480
Hi, I'll give you that in two answers.

395
00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:29.359
I guess I don't have.

396
00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:35.559
A design style, which sometimes people mistake the word strategy

397
00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:38.839
and style. I wouldn't like to think that I have

398
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:41.759
an absolute, definitive style where I'm going to go to

399
00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:45.079
each project and I'm going to build bunkers that look

400
00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:47.960
like X, and no matter where I am, they're going

401
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:49.599
to look like X. That's what I'm going to do.

402
00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:51.799
And there are plenty of architects who do do that,

403
00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:55.480
and they make a very great, good career out of it.

404
00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:59.000
They build one style of golf course and they replicate

405
00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:02.839
that style wherever they find themselves. I choose not to

406
00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:07.000
do that for numerous reasons, the greatest of which is

407
00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:10.039
the fact that I want the land to dictate the style.

408
00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:15.319
The particular circumstance of that project needs to dictate the style,

409
00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:19.880
rather than just me as a brand name, saying well,

410
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:23.200
my style is this and this is what I create.

411
00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:26.680
So there's one answer to that question. On the second part,

412
00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:29.920
is there a strategic style if you like or what

413
00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:35.920
was your question? A strategy that. I yes, I think

414
00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:40.640
there probably is. As a strategist on the golf course,

415
00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:48.720
I try not to defend against a player who is

416
00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:55.039
attempting to make let's say, bogie. I try not to

417
00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:58.720
punish a player who already made a tactical error in

418
00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:03.640
his strategic attack on a golf hole. So I rarely

419
00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:07.440
will position bunkers in a spot that punish a bad shot,

420
00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:12.240
because the bad shot, virtually every single time, is punishment

421
00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:15.559
in itself. I don't know if you top the ball

422
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:18.039
one hundred yards off the tee, I don't really need

423
00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:20.319
to put you in a bunker because you topped the

424
00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:24.039
ball one hundred yards off the tee. So if you're

425
00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:26.759
playing one of my golf courses and you see a

426
00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:31.599
hazard ahead of you, whether it's a topographical hazard, a bunker,

427
00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:38.039
a different height of cut, an area that's visually guarded,

428
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:40.319
you know there's a mound in the way that's blocking

429
00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:41.240
your view a little bit.

430
00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:46.200
Chances are that my defense of that.

431
00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:49.880
Particular spot is because that particular spot is the a

432
00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:53.480
position to make birdie. So you have to get close

433
00:22:53.559 --> 00:22:56.240
to that spot in order to make birdie. I once

434
00:22:56.319 --> 00:22:58.680
had a tour pro tell me I played one of

435
00:22:58.720 --> 00:22:59.519
your golf courses.

436
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:01.960
I didn't like it. I was like, why didn't you

437
00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:02.240
like it?

438
00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:05.039
He said, Well, I was playing great, and I was

439
00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:07.079
in bunkers all day long, and I was playing with

440
00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:08.880
a guy who was playing terrible, and he never was

441
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:12.000
in a single bunker. How is that a good golf course? Well,

442
00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:14.880
he answered his own question. He wasn't playing great, he

443
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:17.680
was playing almost great. If he had been playing great,

444
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:20.880
he'd been right next to all those bunkers and his

445
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:22.599
buddy was playing terrible.

446
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:25.599
Exactly, he was playing terrible. Why did him in a bunker?

447
00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:30.720
So that would be my strategic style, I guess would

448
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:33.359
be the defense of the aggressive line.

449
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:34.759
M hmm.

450
00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:38.880
I think what Robert Trent Jones Senior called it? A

451
00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:41.519
difficult par easy bogie, difficult par.

452
00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:45.680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

453
00:23:46.200 --> 00:23:49.359
And I've you know, every golf course designer has the

454
00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:51.960
same rhetoric. They all talk about, you know, defending par

455
00:23:54.680 --> 00:23:57.559
and how natural their golf course design is. You know,

456
00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:01.200
there isn't a golf course architect in the modern era

457
00:24:01.240 --> 00:24:03.119
at least who doesn't say both those things.

458
00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:04.680
And yet I.

459
00:24:04.759 --> 00:24:08.640
Go play many golf courses by my peers and think, well,

460
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:10.279
I heard them say it but sure as hell don't

461
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:11.039
see it.

462
00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:19.319
Now, let's talk about let's say a part three. Do

463
00:24:19.400 --> 00:24:25.240
you try to create some sort of the word deception

464
00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:27.440
or a distraction?

465
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:34.200
You know what, my theory on this has changed dramatically

466
00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:40.799
over the last ten years. You know, I don't think.

467
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:43.319
I don't know how much of a scoop it is.

468
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:46.759
It's certainly something that I've been promoting as much as

469
00:24:46.759 --> 00:24:50.440
I can over the last ten years. Golf course architects

470
00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:54.839
have been living a lie. You know, I think that's

471
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:57.759
basically it. You know, we take our inspiration from the

472
00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:02.799
very best pseudo golf courses that have ever existed, the

473
00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:08.720
Pine Valleys, the Cyprus Points, the Oakmonts, the Marians, and

474
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:12.480
we hold them up as the perfect golf courses, and

475
00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:15.039
yet they're not. They're not even close to the perfect

476
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:19.319
golf courses for the average player. For the average player,

477
00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:21.880
they couldn't get around those golf courses day and day out,

478
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:25.279
and under one hundred maybe ninety Is that really what

479
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:28.720
we want to go building as golf course architects. Why

480
00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:29.279
is it that.

481
00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:31.119
Bandon June's is so successful?

482
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:33.920
Why do people flop to it year after year after

483
00:25:34.039 --> 00:25:37.680
year because they're playable because they're fun, because they don't

484
00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:43.240
feel intimidated, because they don't feel humiliated. That is such

485
00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:46.240
a key important point that took me so long to

486
00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:51.400
re understand. I absolutely intuitively knew it in my twenties,

487
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:55.200
coming from Scotland, unaffected by the golf that exists in America,

488
00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:58.440
and then for the next ten or fifteen years I

489
00:25:58.599 --> 00:26:03.279
was seduced by the thought that golf to be better

490
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:06.200
has to be harder, and it absolutely does not need

491
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:07.759
to be harder to be better.

492
00:26:09.559 --> 00:26:11.279
You just came up with the title of this show.

493
00:26:13.960 --> 00:26:16.319
It doesn't have to be harder to be better.

494
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:20.839
It doesn't. It absolutely does not. And so.

495
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:25.440
If you take that logic and you really start to

496
00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:28.279
think it through, you really start to examine it. What

497
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:31.359
are the reasons that people play bad? But we said

498
00:26:31.400 --> 00:26:34.000
earlier in this conversation that your body already knows what

499
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:36.640
to do, it's your mind it screws it up. So

500
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:40.440
why does your mind screw it up? Well, consciously, it's

501
00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:42.720
because you're thinking about all these tips that you read

502
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.720
in every damn magazine with a thousand different tips, and

503
00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:47.599
then every time you turn the golf channel on, there's

504
00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:49.640
some guy telling you to hold it this way, tweak

505
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:51.880
it that way, push your hips out, do this, do that.

506
00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:54.880
So your mind consciously goes there. But where does this

507
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:58.720
subconsciously go. It subconsciously goes to all the things that

508
00:26:58.759 --> 00:27:01.119
are going to go wrong, all the reasons why you

509
00:27:01.160 --> 00:27:04.119
are going to fail, even before you take that club back.

510
00:27:05.319 --> 00:27:06.799
Every one of us plays.

511
00:27:06.440 --> 00:27:09.039
Our home golf course and we go out and we

512
00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:11.799
get to a hole, and we pull the tea out

513
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:13.720
of our pocket and we put it in the ground,

514
00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:15.960
and we already know as we bend down to put

515
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.319
that ball on the tea peg, I'm going to lose

516
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:20.480
this ball. Why are you going to lose it? Because

517
00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:23.119
you lose it every time you play this hole. Why

518
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:26.279
are you not going to make par or even bogie

519
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:28.839
because you never make You know, this is your double hole.

520
00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:32.119
You always make double here. But why you look at it?

521
00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:35.200
It's not that hard. It's because it's all in your head.

522
00:27:35.240 --> 00:27:38.200
You're so intimidated by that particular hole you just can't

523
00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:38.880
get past it.

524
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:40.880
Flip that one.

525
00:27:40.920 --> 00:27:44.160
It's head. There's another hole. You pull the tea out,

526
00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:45.559
you stick it in the ground. You say, this is

527
00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:47.440
my BIRDI hole. I make birdie here. All the time.

528
00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:49.720
This is a great hole. I love this hole. Is

529
00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:51.960
it because it's easier? I don't think it's easier.

530
00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:54.519
I mean any hole if it's you know, three hundred

531
00:27:54.519 --> 00:27:56.400
and fifty to four hundred and fifty yards long with

532
00:27:56.440 --> 00:27:58.119
a cup at one end, It's not.

533
00:27:58.119 --> 00:27:59.960
Easier for the average guy.

534
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:03.319
It still requires two reasonably good shots and a couple

535
00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:06.440
of putts to make par So what was the real difference?

536
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:09.519
It was what your mind told you.

537
00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:14.319
It was the sense of peace, the sense of hope

538
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:17.839
that you have in your head when you step up

539
00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:20.680
to that ball. So, as a golf course designer, can

540
00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:23.839
I go out and build eighteen holes that give you

541
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:26.720
a sense of hope, that give you encouragement, that don't

542
00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:31.079
intimidate you that you could feel I got a chance here. Now,

543
00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:33.559
if I could do that eighteen times, would that course

544
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:37.960
be loved or derided? Would people think this course was

545
00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:44.519
too easy or a blast? I would make the position

546
00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:47.880
that Bandon June's is the former, not the latter. You

547
00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:50.799
stand on every hole at Bandon and you think to yourself,

548
00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:53.480
I got a chance here, and even when you hit

549
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:55.680
a bad one, I got a chance to get back here.

550
00:28:56.240 --> 00:28:59.960
Because it's full of hope and recovery. There's no intimidate,

551
00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:04.079
very very little, and so that becomes much more appealing

552
00:29:04.519 --> 00:29:08.720
than a golf course that has eighteen holes of like

553
00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:13.200
climbing everest, one tiny mistake, I'm going to die. And

554
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:16.319
for me, that's where I want my career to go forward.

555
00:29:16.519 --> 00:29:19.079
I want to build golf courses. Sure, you've got to

556
00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:21.480
play well to make birdies, but you don't have to

557
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:23.559
play that well to make bogies. In fact, I'm going

558
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:26.880
to do everything in my power, everything as a golf

559
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:29.880
course designer, to help you make bogie. I'm going to

560
00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:32.119
make sure you don't lose that ball. I'm going to

561
00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:34.920
make sure that green doesn't throw you away. I'm going

562
00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:37.880
to make sure that that bunker does have some opportunity

563
00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:40.880
for recovery because you're already in it. Because once you're

564
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:43.839
in trouble, I don't have to make it harder. In fact,

565
00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:46.240
I'm going to do the opposite of that and try

566
00:29:46.279 --> 00:29:48.119
and make it a little easier on you so that

567
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:49.359
you can get back in the game.

568
00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:54.839
Thank you, We appreciate that. I wish it were so true.

569
00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:58.039
I mean, you've mentioned now Bandon Dunes a couple of

570
00:29:58.039 --> 00:30:01.480
times and We teased it early on that you are

571
00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:05.640
the Now did you design all the courses at Bandon Dunes?

572
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:06.480
Oh?

573
00:30:06.519 --> 00:30:07.839
I wish I could say yes.

574
00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:10.079
I wish, I wish, I wish I could say yes,

575
00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:14.680
But unfortunately no, I did the first one. And I

576
00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:16.599
love the fact that I did the first one.

577
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:19.799
Which was the first one, and Jin's okay.

578
00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:19.960
Yeah.

579
00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:23.559
Without the first one, the others obviously wouldn't have had

580
00:30:23.559 --> 00:30:27.519
a chance to exist. Sure, and it set the course

581
00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:30.960
by which all the others followed. And as I said,

582
00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:34.799
the band and Junes covers a great amount of land.

583
00:30:34.839 --> 00:30:38.799
You know, the fairways are vast, the greens are huge,

584
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:43.480
But fundamentally the golf course is still the same length

585
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:46.400
as any other golf course, and the cup is still

586
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:50.359
four and a quarter inches, So it's no for the

587
00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:52.839
average guy to get it from tea to cup is

588
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:55.680
just as hard. They still have to hit it a

589
00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:59.559
couple of times and put so. So much of this

590
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:04.440
game is about, in the average golfer's eyes, what happens

591
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:06.319
when I screw up? Because I know I'm going to,

592
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:09.680
And if as a golf course designer, I can not

593
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:14.279
punish screw ups, I can actually aid screw ups. Then

594
00:31:14.319 --> 00:31:18.400
the golf course becomes so much more fun. And to

595
00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:22.039
self promote just a tiny bit if I can. The

596
00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:24.759
last two or three courses that me and my small

597
00:31:24.759 --> 00:31:29.039
team have done, we've taken this theory that we've discussed

598
00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:32.160
ad nauseum and we've put it into practice to see

599
00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:35.440
what their reaction is. And the latest incarnation of that

600
00:31:35.559 --> 00:31:39.119
is a course up in central Washington called Gamble Sands,

601
00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:42.640
and we built that course with the logic that I've

602
00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:45.119
been mentioning. People absolutely love it.

603
00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:45.759
I have been.

604
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:50.559
The last time I had reactions like this was twenty

605
00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:56.319
years ago building Bend Engines. The average player absolutely loves it,

606
00:31:56.359 --> 00:31:59.440
but so do the pros. They go around it, they

607
00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:02.599
think they can shoot fifty nine sixty two sixty four.

608
00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:04.640
They think that they can absolutely kill it.

609
00:32:05.079 --> 00:32:07.920
But of course, the more aggressive they get, and as

610
00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:12.039
I said earlier, the hazards are next to those aggressive lines,

611
00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:15.440
the more quickly that they can end up punished, the

612
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:19.200
more the tie to the margin of error becomes between

613
00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:22.799
a perfect shot and a recovery shot. But for the

614
00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:26.160
average golfer who's just trying to keep it in play

615
00:32:26.200 --> 00:32:29.319
and make pars, they're not aiming at those super tight

616
00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:32.839
lines so that they get to shoot good scores and

617
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:35.119
then everything else is about keeping them in play. So

618
00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:37.960
in every tee they have that sense of, oh, this

619
00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:40.519
is a green lighthole, this isn't a danger whole. I'm

620
00:32:40.519 --> 00:32:43.319
not going to lose this ball. I can go after this,

621
00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:45.839
I can be aggressive. And because they can, they do,

622
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:50.799
and because they do, they succeed. So because the danger

623
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:55.200
isn't quite so terminal, they have a more fluid, more

624
00:32:55.240 --> 00:32:58.880
comfortable swing and they hit the ball straighter, longer, better, higher,

625
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:00.000
you know, everything gets better.

626
00:33:02.839 --> 00:33:07.759
I personally, Bandon beat me up. I was out there

627
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:15.960
on a beautiful but incredibly windy weekend and the four

628
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:20.759
courses that we played, including Bandon, just devastated me. I

629
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:22.880
came home. It wasn't until I started looking at all

630
00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:25.319
my photographs that I realized how much fun I had.

631
00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:28.880
But when I left there, I was crying. I mean, well,

632
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:30.759
it felt like I can take no.

633
00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:34.279
Blame nor credit for the weather.

634
00:33:34.759 --> 00:33:38.839
No nor my golf, and even have.

635
00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:41.519
The wind isn't blowing, you know, it's a completely different game.

636
00:33:41.559 --> 00:33:46.319
I mean, how you close is the golf that most

637
00:33:46.359 --> 00:33:48.519
people are playing in America, where they're hitting it off

638
00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:52.200
bermuda grass or bluegrass to a bank grass green that's

639
00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:55.880
running at twelve to then flipping that on its head

640
00:33:55.880 --> 00:33:58.079
and going to Bandon Guns where you're hitting it off

641
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:02.720
a fair way that's tighter than your parking lot and

642
00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:06.160
a green that's pitching and rolling and as slow as

643
00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:09.159
the t's at many clubs, you know, this is links golf.

644
00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:11.639
It's a completely different game. So for a lot of

645
00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:15.159
people it's a re education. They have to learn that

646
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:20.679
little chip shot. They understand or they come to understand

647
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:23.599
that they've been playing golf their whole entire lives hitting

648
00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:26.440
it slightly fat, and if you hit the ball a

649
00:34:26.440 --> 00:34:29.480
little bit fat at Bandon June's, you're going to get

650
00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:31.360
sore wrists and the ball's not going to do what

651
00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:32.199
you think it's going to do.

652
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:34.639
You have to be able to hit the ball first.

653
00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:36.599
You have to be able to try and hit right

654
00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.559
behind that ball and press it down into the turf.

655
00:34:40.039 --> 00:34:42.800
And so that takes Even for the best of golfers,

656
00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:45.480
that can be a learning process where they have to

657
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:49.840
understand that it's not about this giant divot that they

658
00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:51.920
take that's a fraction of an inch behind the ball,

659
00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:53.880
and they still get a good result. It's not how

660
00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:56.519
it works on links golf got to hit the ball first.

661
00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:03.719
Because you know, I do audio and video production, and

662
00:35:04.039 --> 00:35:07.360
I like doing that because I can continue to manipulate

663
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:12.159
my project until I feel it's ready. And then when

664
00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:14.400
I feel like it's ready, before I present it to

665
00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:17.800
my client, my customer, I sit on it for a

666
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:21.400
few minutes a day just in case, I, you know,

667
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:24.159
see it with different eyes the next day, going, you

668
00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:25.920
know what, I want to tweak that. I want to

669
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:29.000
change that a little bit. At what point do you

670
00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:34.559
are you comfortable with handing over the project to your

671
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:37.400
client saying it's done?

672
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:41.639
I mean never is the real pass.

673
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:46.079
I mean, you know, we're we're constantly tweaking and adjusting.

674
00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:49.280
You know, I explain to every client that, you know,

675
00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:53.039
if these golf courses are loved and successful, they're going

676
00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:56.760
to be tweaked and adjusted, hopefully by the original architect

677
00:35:56.840 --> 00:36:01.920
through at least his life span. That's inevitability with that

678
00:36:03.559 --> 00:36:07.199
when we're building it. Once we start to put drainage

679
00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:11.360
and irrigation in, my ability to flip flop and change

680
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:14.239
my mind gets greatly reduced.

681
00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:15.960
So that's usually it.

682
00:36:16.039 --> 00:36:18.519
But I could shape a hole once and say to

683
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:21.199
the guys, okay, let's put the undergrounds in. Or I

684
00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:24.440
could shape it ten times in three days. I mean,

685
00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:27.719
when you're pushing dirt around, making bunkers, taking them out,

686
00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:30.519
putting them back in, shaping the green one way, shaping

687
00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:33.000
it another, and moving it over to the left, pitching

688
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:35.320
it another direct. We can do that in a few hours.

689
00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:40.159
So the time it takes to adjust and readjust prior

690
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:43.880
to the undergrounds going in is very small on the

691
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:47.119
average project. So I do get the chance to futz

692
00:36:47.199 --> 00:36:52.280
around quite a bit, and quite often we will conceptualize

693
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:54.920
a hole on paper, get out in the field, totally,

694
00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:58.039
change our minds, shape something in from tea to green,

695
00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:01.800
walk it half of the times, really like it, go

696
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:04.760
to lunch, sit and have lunch, maybe the guys have

697
00:37:04.760 --> 00:37:08.400
a beer, change our minds, come back, blow it up again, change.

698
00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:08.719
You know.

699
00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:10.760
It can be that kind of process. It really can

700
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:15.360
be dramatic to end up with something else, And it's

701
00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:19.239
all about that process. I'm not saying the first idea

702
00:37:19.400 --> 00:37:22.199
wasn't great, but I'm hoping the last idea is ten

703
00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:27.199
times better. And so that that process that morphing from

704
00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:30.519
A through Z is an essential part of the creative

705
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:34.920
steps that you're taking. It's much more like sculpture than

706
00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:36.880
it is like conventional architecture.

707
00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:39.960
Do you design from the front dees or do you

708
00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:42.119
design from the back teas? And I know obviously the

709
00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:44.920
t's aren't there, but in your mind when you're when

710
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:47.039
you're you know, looking down a fair way, or do

711
00:37:47.079 --> 00:37:50.039
you feel like this is this is for the better hitters,

712
00:37:50.119 --> 00:37:51.679
or this is for the people. We're gonna give them

713
00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:52.239
a little break.

714
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:55.159
Oh you're going to like this answer. Okay, you are

715
00:37:55.400 --> 00:37:59.440
one hundred and eighty degrees wrong. Now, we never ever

716
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:01.840
design it on the tees. We always design it from

717
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:07.320
the green. Always start at the green, then you work

718
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:12.400
your way back. You're always conceptualizing where this is a

719
00:38:12.440 --> 00:38:15.800
good green site. I like this location for whatever reason.

720
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:18.800
How would a green best sit into this piece of ground?

721
00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:20.599
Is it going to sit in as a kidney bean

722
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:24.559
left to right? Is it going to sit in falling

723
00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:26.679
front to back? Is it going to pitch from left

724
00:38:26.679 --> 00:38:28.960
to right or right to left? Where would the bunkers

725
00:38:29.079 --> 00:38:32.440
naturally want to sit? So you're designing the green in

726
00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:37.280
its environs in a way that is sympathetic to the

727
00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:40.639
surrounds that it has to blend back into. And once

728
00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:43.760
you have that concept in your head of how that

729
00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:46.920
green wants to sit into its environment, you can then

730
00:38:47.079 --> 00:38:49.639
step back down the fairway until you're all the way

731
00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:53.559
to the back tee conceptualizing how the player will be

732
00:38:53.719 --> 00:38:56.519
asked to attack that green location and shape.

733
00:38:57.559 --> 00:39:02.719
Oh boy, it's completely turned aroun That mess with.

734
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:03.400
Your head, didn't I?

735
00:39:03.559 --> 00:39:08.760
Yeah? So, as as a from a golfer's perspective, when

736
00:39:08.800 --> 00:39:11.960
we're standing at the tea box, should we be thinking

737
00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:14.159
with an architect's mine?

738
00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:17.519
Absolutely, you should. You should be thinking what does the

739
00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:19.519
green look like? And then where is the pin on

740
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:24.119
that green? And then then decide your logic coming backwards

741
00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:26.320
from there, where would I like that approach shot to

742
00:39:26.360 --> 00:39:29.800
come from? And then back to the tee. Now where

743
00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:33.519
do I have to hit it to get that approach shot? Now,

744
00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:37.280
there's so many I My other half is a lady

745
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:41.800
tour player, and there are so many simple things that

746
00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:45.280
tour players do that the average player does not. You know,

747
00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:47.920
if she can't reach a par five and two, she

748
00:39:47.960 --> 00:39:51.440
immediately starts to question whether it's worth hitting driver. Sure,

749
00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:54.440
And then if you're not going to be hitting driver?

750
00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:56.880
What are the hazards in your way on that t shot?

751
00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:00.320
Where ninety nine percent of the average golfers, if it's

752
00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:04.599
a par four driver, how it comes, and they rarely

753
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:08.599
think about anything else. So I love to mess with

754
00:40:09.400 --> 00:40:13.599
golfers that way. I like to try and convince a

755
00:40:13.639 --> 00:40:16.239
golfer that I'm never going to meet that they should

756
00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:19.079
hit other clubs. Par four's where a six iron might

757
00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:22.599
be the best, par three's where a driver might be

758
00:40:22.599 --> 00:40:25.280
best even though it's only two hundred yards. All sorts

759
00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:27.719
of different things to try and convince someone to think

760
00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:34.679
about the trajectory and the potential risk and reward off

761
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:36.159
the tea.

762
00:40:36.639 --> 00:40:40.360
All right, listen, this has been just such an education

763
00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:43.239
for me. I really appreciate your time. This is a blast.

764
00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:46.679
We're gonna take a little break here so I can

765
00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:49.400
make an announcement or two and talk about this week's sponsor.

766
00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:53.440
And when we come back, can I get you to

767
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:56.880
give us another piece of advice? That last one was incredible?

768
00:40:57.199 --> 00:41:00.039
Can we get another piece of advice on how the

769
00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:05.920
average golfer should be approaching his game with architect's eyes?

770
00:41:06.920 --> 00:41:08.960
Sure, of course, thank you?

771
00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:12.760
All right? Last week I announced that I injured myself.

772
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:14.719
I tore my right calf muscle and won't be playing

773
00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:18.079
golf for a number of weeks. And I appreciate your

774
00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:20.320
kind messages, thank you so much, and some of the

775
00:41:20.360 --> 00:41:24.039
great suggestions of how we should approach this, But I

776
00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:26.679
think I'm going to continue trying to do the podcast

777
00:41:26.719 --> 00:41:29.599
over the next few weeks during my recovery. My recovery,

778
00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:31.760
I just I just don't have it in my heart

779
00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:35.199
to play reruns, not yet at least, But they're a

780
00:41:35.239 --> 00:41:40.360
premium They're there there for the premium subscribers, and if

781
00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:42.360
you have access to it, why should I play it again?

782
00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:44.840
So I'm going to try to create new content anyway.

783
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:49.320
Our guest last week, Jim venettis he's captured my attention

784
00:41:49.480 --> 00:41:52.199
like few instructors we've had on the show, and based

785
00:41:52.239 --> 00:41:55.039
on what you've fed back to me, you liked his

786
00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:58.800
teaching style as well. So it just so happens that

787
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:01.599
the day I injured myself, I had been to the

788
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:03.679
range and took video of my swings and sent it

789
00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:06.840
to Jim for his analysis and feedback. Well, the comments

790
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:10.119
that he sent back after I injured myself got me

791
00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:14.599
just too excited about developing the new swing based on

792
00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:20.079
his style of the weight shift and stillness. But I

793
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:23.119
can't do anything about it for a while. So I

794
00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:25.079
wrote back to Jim and I told him about my

795
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:28.880
frustration of my predicament, and he suggested that I treat

796
00:42:28.920 --> 00:42:33.559
this like it's a winter off. It's the off season.

797
00:42:34.599 --> 00:42:37.320
I don't have that. Being here in California, we get

798
00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:39.360
to play twelve months a year, but so many golf

799
00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:42.599
smarter listeners in the northern part of the US, in

800
00:42:42.679 --> 00:42:45.880
Europe and the UK have to suffer through this every

801
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:50.280
single year themselves. So yeah, I think it's a great idea.

802
00:42:50.360 --> 00:42:53.280
So Jim and I have scheduled a long recording session

803
00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:57.079
later this week to record a bunch of episodes covering

804
00:42:57.119 --> 00:43:00.000
a number of topics, but especially we're going to folks

805
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:04.519
us on off season work, working indoors, short game mechanics,

806
00:43:04.599 --> 00:43:08.880
putting things like that that I hope will not only

807
00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:12.559
keep my sanity as I try to recover, but we'll

808
00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:16.639
give some helpful insights and advice to you. And you

809
00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:20.079
should definitely check out his website. He's so good. Anyway,

810
00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:22.840
let's go ahead and get back to our golf course

811
00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:27.280
architect guest today, David McLay Kidd with his insights on

812
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:31.119
how amateur golfers can strategize playing a golf hole with

813
00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:32.559
a designer's perspective.

814
00:43:33.559 --> 00:43:36.320
Well, it comes as a surprise to many golfers the

815
00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:39.039
hype and design golf holes from tee to green, actually

816
00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:41.760
design them from green back to tea. We're always looking

817
00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:44.599
for how the green sits into the location that we've

818
00:43:44.639 --> 00:43:47.840
selected for the green, and the green might sit in

819
00:43:48.039 --> 00:43:51.000
from left to right, right to left, back to front.

820
00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:53.679
There's all sorts of ways that we could nastle it

821
00:43:53.719 --> 00:43:57.000
into that natural piece of environment. But when we've decided

822
00:43:57.039 --> 00:43:59.800
how it sits in there, we then start coming back down.

823
00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:03.719
They deciding, well, where would be the best angle into

824
00:44:03.760 --> 00:44:06.239
that green? And once we figured that out, how do

825
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:09.519
we defend that spot? And then back to the tees.

826
00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:12.559
So when the player stands on the tees and views

827
00:44:12.599 --> 00:44:15.800
the hole in the mirror effect, they're looking at it

828
00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:18.039
in the opposite way then the way we designed it.

829
00:44:18.280 --> 00:44:20.559
They have to put themselves in my head, what does

830
00:44:20.599 --> 00:44:23.639
the green look like? Where is it best to approach

831
00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:25.800
that green? Is the left side of the fairway, the

832
00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:29.159
right side, the short, the long Generally, if it's of

833
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:32.519
course I've designed, Chances are are I'll be guarding that

834
00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:35.039
spot somewhere in the fairway. So once you've figured all

835
00:44:35.079 --> 00:44:37.480
that out, you can then decide what kind of attack

836
00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:39.039
you're going to make on that

837
00:44:39.079 --> 00:44:40.639
Whole and how you're going to make birdie