Sept. 19, 2025

"A Difficult Par" - Biography of Robert Trent Jones Sr and the Making of Modern Golf

"A Difficult Par" - Biography of Robert Trent Jones Sr and the Making of Modern Golf
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Goodpods podcast player icon Overcast podcast player icon iHeartRadio podcast player icon YouTube podcast player icon Amazon Music podcast player icon Podcast Addict podcast player icon PlayerFM podcast player icon Spreaker podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Goodpods podcast player icon Overcast podcast player icon iHeartRadio podcast player icon YouTube podcast player icon Amazon Music podcast player icon Podcast Addict podcast player icon PlayerFM podcast player icon Spreaker podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon

GS#436&437 May 13, 2014. Robert Trent Jones Sr. is regarded as the most historically significant golf architect of the 20th century. The fabric of golf in America - possibly the world - is embodied in the extraordinary career of Robert Trent Jones Sr. in golf course design. In this conversation with New York Times bestselling author and internationally distinguished historian James R. Hansen, he shares the compelling life story of the man who designed or redesigned a staggering 400+ courses spread over 43 U.S. states and 27 other nations, including instantly recognizable names as Spyglass Hill in California, and Ballybunion in Ireland.  James R. Hansen is a Professor of History at Auburn University in Alabama, a lifelong golfer, and his first book in 2005 "First Man" is the only authorized biography of astronaut Neil Armstrong.

This episode is brought to you by BreakfastBalls.Golf. Visit BreakfastBalls.Golf for the best quality and pricing on premium used golf balls. Find your favorite brand at half the price of new balls!  Use GOLFSMARTER at checkout for 20% off your order!
Check out "Invested in the Game", a new original podcast from Charles Schwab. This podcast is their way of sharing the incredible stories behind the game. Listen now at schwab.com/TheGame or wherever you get your podcasts.
This episode is sponsored by Indeed. Please visit indeed.com/GOLFSMARTER and get a $75 SPONSORED JOB CREDIT. Terms and conditions apply. 
This episode is sponsored by HIMS. Start your free online visit today HIMS.com/golfsmarter and received personalized ED treatment options.   
This episode is also brought to you by Policygenius. Secure your family’s future with Policygenius. Head to policygenius.com to compare free life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save.

If you have a question about whether or not Fred is using any of the methods, equipment or apps we’ve discussed, or if you’d like to share a comment about what you’ve heard in this or any other episode, please write because Fred will get back to you. Either write to golfsmarterpodcast@gmail.com or click on the Hey Fred button, at golfsmarter.com

WEBVTT

1
00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:04.480
These two episodes combined into one is the full unedited

2
00:00:04.599 --> 00:00:07.879
hour long interview with James R. Hansen on his biography

3
00:00:07.960 --> 00:00:11.599
called A Difficult par Robert Trent Jones, Senior and the

4
00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:15.000
Making of Modern Golf. It was originally published as Golf

5
00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:18.679
Smarter episode's number four hundred thirty six and four hundred

6
00:00:18.760 --> 00:00:22.760
thirty seven from May thirteenth and twentieth, twenty fourteen.

7
00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:28.079
Welcome to Golf Smarter Mulligans, your second chance to gain

8
00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:31.719
insight and advice from the best instructors featured on the

9
00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:37.759
Golf Smarter podcast. Great Golf Instruction Never gets Old. Our

10
00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:42.640
interview library features hundreds of hours of game improvement conversations

11
00:00:42.759 --> 00:00:46.640
like this that are no longer available in any podcast app.

12
00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:50.640
Maybe the most interesting crediting issue that comes up relates

13
00:00:50.679 --> 00:00:54.479
to Augusta National. In the late forties, Bobby Jones brought

14
00:00:54.520 --> 00:00:57.359
Trend in to do some significant.

15
00:00:56.799 --> 00:00:59.960
Remodeling of some of the holes at Augusta Number sixteen.

16
00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:02.399
As we know it, one of the great par threes

17
00:01:02.439 --> 00:01:04.959
in the world, was a very different hole before Trent

18
00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:07.239
Jones came in and redid it. The tea was right

19
00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:09.879
behind the fifteenth green. It was a little creek. It

20
00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:12.079
wasn't a lake, and the green was on the left

21
00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:14.040
of where it is now over that creek.

22
00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:15.319
It was a bad hole.

23
00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:17.560
Trent and the membership and the people who had been

24
00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:20.519
playing the Masters thought that sixteen was a week sister.

25
00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:23.799
And Jones comes in in redesigns that hole completely. I

26
00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:26.560
mean it's his hole. He redesigns the eighteenth green and

27
00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:30.319
the mounding around it. He redesigns the thirteenth green. He's

28
00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:33.000
the one that creates the tea on eleven from a

29
00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:36.200
dog lake right three hundred and fifty yard hole with

30
00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:39.159
a green where that lake isn't there, turns it into

31
00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:42.599
a longer four hundred Part four. It really kind of

32
00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:45.159
turns to the left and the green gets extended around

33
00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:48.439
this lake. And what's interesting about this is Augusta National

34
00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:51.040
never has credited Trent Jones for the work because they

35
00:01:51.079 --> 00:01:53.359
don't want to take any attention away from McKenzie or

36
00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:54.120
Bobby Jones.

37
00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:02.120
A difficult part our biography of Robert Trent Jones, Senior

38
00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:03.560
and the making of modern golf.

39
00:02:03.640 --> 00:02:05.359
This is Golf Smarter.

40
00:02:06.599 --> 00:02:08.240
Welcome to the Golf Smarter podcast.

41
00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:11.159
Jim, Thank you very much. Fredd. It's a pleasure to

42
00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:12.360
be with you on this podcast.

43
00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:16.680
Thank you. I got a book in the mail from

44
00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:20.280
your publisher with your name on it, and I love

45
00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:23.360
the title of it, especially when I was reading what

46
00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:25.439
it meant. So why don't we just start with that.

47
00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:28.840
The book is called A Difficult par Where did that

48
00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:29.639
come from?

49
00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:34.199
Well, literally, it comes from the basic principle that Robert.

50
00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:36.599
Trent Jones Senior followed in the design of his golf

51
00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:39.360
courses really from the very start of his career to

52
00:02:39.439 --> 00:02:39.800
the end.

53
00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:42.840
And that was the idea that every good hole should

54
00:02:42.879 --> 00:02:43.120
be a.

55
00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:46.759
Difficult par but an easy bogey. So that was kind

56
00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:50.879
of the ruling architectural principle for him, and I thought

57
00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:53.680
not only not only was it a mainstay of his

58
00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:58.919
architectural strategy, but I thought the title also, in a

59
00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:02.280
more metaphorical way, conveyed some other aspects of his career,

60
00:03:03.159 --> 00:03:06.199
because he had lots of ups and downs, and it

61
00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:09.680
was an immigrant boy, you know, that had big ambitions,

62
00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:13.400
and so it's really a uniquely American dream kind of story.

63
00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:16.960
And so the difficult part conveys, I hope, more than

64
00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:18.759
just the architectural principle.

65
00:03:20.879 --> 00:03:23.960
And why did you pick? I mean, I looked at

66
00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:28.360
the other titles that you've written, and I was kind

67
00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:32.240
of baffled. Tell us about the other books that you've done.

68
00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:33.960
Let you do the talking on that one.

69
00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:37.400
Yeah, Well, my career. You know, I'm an academic historian.

70
00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:40.400
I think history at Auburn University here in Alabama, and

71
00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:43.560
I specialize really in the history of science and technology,

72
00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:46.680
and I've written most of my books on the history

73
00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:49.560
of aeronautics or the history of the space program. My

74
00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:53.599
one previous biography was Biography of Neil Armstrong, which I

75
00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:55.639
guess is book I'm best known for.

76
00:03:57.080 --> 00:03:59.400
But I always wanted to do something.

77
00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:03.479
I wanted to do at least one book on golf

78
00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:06.360
because I grew up playing golf from the time I

79
00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:08.400
was nine or ten. I worked at a golf course

80
00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:11.719
from that same age. All the way through college, I

81
00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:15.560
played college golf. You know, I've always loved the game,

82
00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:18.120
and I wasn't good enough.

83
00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:21.399
To you know, to really play in any kind.

84
00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:25.639
Of significant way. But I wanted to do something, you know,

85
00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:29.399
for a sport that I loved so much. And I

86
00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:33.000
got this idea to do a Jones book, probably in

87
00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:35.199
part because I lived in Alabama and in the early

88
00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:38.199
nineteen nineties, the Robert Trent Jones Trail was being built

89
00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:42.079
all over the state, and that, I think kind of

90
00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:46.240
that converged with just my overall interest in the game

91
00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:49.720
of golf and my interest in doing a biography. And

92
00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:52.639
I actually contacted mister Jones when he was still living

93
00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:54.000
down in South Florida.

94
00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:55.639
I wrote a letter to him, and I got a.

95
00:04:55.639 --> 00:04:58.920
Letter back from his lawyer saying mister Jones wanted to

96
00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:00.720
do his own biography.

97
00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:02.600
That never worked.

98
00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:04.959
Out, and then he died in the year two thousand

99
00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:07.680
and By that point in time, I was on to

100
00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:10.639
the Neil Armstrong biography, But as soon as that was

101
00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:11.240
published in.

102
00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:13.399
Two thousand and five, I got serious again.

103
00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:16.439
And I had to overcome a number of challenges related

104
00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:19.879
to the records of mister Jones and to the two

105
00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:22.480
sons of mister Jones, both of whom are prominent golf

106
00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:25.600
course architects. But yeah, it's strange that I would go

107
00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:28.120
to this topic. But if you know my own biographical

108
00:05:28.279 --> 00:05:31.240
story and the loves of my life, which one of

109
00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:35.040
which is golf, you know it's something I've really wanted

110
00:05:35.079 --> 00:05:36.120
to do for a long time.

111
00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:39.240
Are you going to do biographies on your wife and children.

112
00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:42.240
You can talk about doing stories on the love of

113
00:05:42.279 --> 00:05:43.199
your life to that.

114
00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:45.079
And in fact, I hope no one ever does a

115
00:05:45.079 --> 00:05:48.519
biography of me, and not that they would, but you know,

116
00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:51.399
one of the amazing things about this particular biography is

117
00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:52.839
that I had access.

118
00:05:52.480 --> 00:05:55.279
To, really carblanche, all of.

119
00:05:55.279 --> 00:05:58.920
Jones's papers, personal and business, even his love letters to

120
00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:01.720
his wife to be that he wrote in the early

121
00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:04.399
nineteen thirties in the midst of the depression, when he

122
00:06:04.519 --> 00:06:07.199
was trying to get his career started and you know,

123
00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:10.519
wasn't getting jobs or wasn't getting paid for the jobs

124
00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:14.319
that he did do. And so I had amazing access

125
00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:17.639
to all of his records. And you know, you don't

126
00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:21.040
usually when you get into somebody's archives.

127
00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:23.399
Usually you know they've pulled out a bunch of stuff

128
00:06:23.399 --> 00:06:24.839
that they don't want you to see.

129
00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:28.639
In this case, there was the sons of mister Jones

130
00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:33.279
just let all that material go to Cornell University without

131
00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:37.639
any kind of without any you know, censorship or restrictions.

132
00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:40.959
And so when I got into that archive, which was

133
00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:45.360
by special permission of Rob Trin Jones Junior, initially, I

134
00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:47.319
mean it was really verb you know, sort of.

135
00:06:47.319 --> 00:06:50.079
An impact file all.

136
00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:53.399
I mean, the boxes were basically the filing cabinet drawords

137
00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:56.680
that had been mister Jones's records for seventy years.

138
00:06:57.560 --> 00:07:01.480
Of all the characters that have come across and walked

139
00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:08.040
across a green, why Robert Trent Jones. Yeah, well, there's

140
00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:12.959
so many great characters, yea, And I mean I understand

141
00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:17.000
everything was uphill battle for him, including that love affair

142
00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:21.600
before he got married that was a strong uphill battle,

143
00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:24.120
and even becoming a golf course architect. From the way

144
00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:27.560
you describe it, everything was an uphill battle for him.

145
00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:30.439
But was he that compelling of a human being?

146
00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:33.839
Well, it got easier for him because by the nineteen fifties,

147
00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:37.360
when he was becoming known as the Open Doctor.

148
00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:41.279
For his renovation of championship courses, mostly from the US Opened,

149
00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:44.639
but then for some of the other majors known notably

150
00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:48.639
the PGA, it got easier for him, and he got

151
00:07:48.680 --> 00:07:52.839
so successful and so prolific that it became kind of

152
00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:55.079
challenge just to keep up with all of his projects,

153
00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:58.600
because he was really considered to be the world's foremost

154
00:07:58.639 --> 00:07:59.959
golf architect at that point.

155
00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:03.319
My choice of Jones was really based.

156
00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:06.680
On partly instinct and partly I was pretty sure I

157
00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:09.279
had the information about this correct. I just didn't think

158
00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:12.800
there was anybody in American golf, and that includes all

159
00:08:12.839 --> 00:08:13.600
the professionals.

160
00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:16.759
I didn't think there was anyone where you could tell

161
00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:18.160
more about.

162
00:08:17.920 --> 00:08:21.000
The history of the American golf course and about American

163
00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:23.800
golf generally. And I find a matter of worldwide golf

164
00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:27.879
than Jones, because you know, here's someone that worked that

165
00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:32.759
worked as an architect from nineteen thirty, from the Calvin

166
00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:38.120
Coolidge to two thousand, you know, to George Bush. So

167
00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:41.399
I mean, he had this very very long career and

168
00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:45.120
he designed golf courses in forty three different states of

169
00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:48.399
the United States and Puerto Rico on five different continents.

170
00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:52.720
He was certainly recognized. I mean, he really made golf

171
00:08:52.840 --> 00:08:56.480
architecture as a profession what it was, because I mean

172
00:08:56.519 --> 00:09:00.159
not that there weren't very talented maybe even you can

173
00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:04.720
certainly argue that there were even better architects and McKenzie

174
00:09:04.840 --> 00:09:08.240
or Donald Ross or someone, but they weren't really household names.

175
00:09:08.279 --> 00:09:10.759
The name of the architect was not really well we

176
00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:13.360
think of today. We always know we're playing a gross

177
00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:16.240
course or a Pete Die course or whatever. But golfers

178
00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:19.000
didn't think that way. Prior to Robert Tren Jones. He

179
00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:22.360
was the first brand name in golf, and he was

180
00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:25.840
part K. T. Barnum and part Alfred Hitchcock. I mean

181
00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:30.240
was he was this really ambitious character. He was a

182
00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:33.559
great He was a great pitch man. He wasn't really

183
00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:35.200
a great businessman.

184
00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:37.039
As the book points.

185
00:09:36.679 --> 00:09:39.600
Out, his wife, i Owne, who he married in nineteen

186
00:09:39.639 --> 00:09:42.679
thirty four. She was a five paid, five bitakap, a

187
00:09:42.799 --> 00:09:45.799
graduate of Wells College, and she was smarter than Hack

188
00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:47.639
and she really kind of ran the.

189
00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:50.200
Business operation for Jones for most of his life.

190
00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:55.000
And without her, you know, he probably would have failed.

191
00:09:55.840 --> 00:09:59.879
But he was just very, very good at convincing people

192
00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:02.679
that they should build golf courses, and he got to know.

193
00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:07.080
By telling his story, you're telling the story of most

194
00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:12.879
of the well to do gentlemen of.

195
00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:14.399
American society who got involved.

196
00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:17.600
In golf course development, everyone from the Laurence Rockefeller, who

197
00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:20.600
was building golf courses at some of his major resorts

198
00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:24.600
around the world, including Mona Kea in Hawaii, which became

199
00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:28.679
one of jones Is more prominent golf courses. Jones had

200
00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:33.759
correspondence with Bobby Jones and a close friendship with Gene Sarason.

201
00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:37.879
He corresponded regularly with Francis who met of course, you know,

202
00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:41.159
his courses, to his courses in the fifties and sixties

203
00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:41.879
and seventies.

204
00:10:42.159 --> 00:10:45.519
You know, he's having interactions with you know, with Ben

205
00:10:45.600 --> 00:10:47.559
Hogan and Palmer and Nicholas.

206
00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:51.320
So I really went into it thinking that there was

207
00:10:51.799 --> 00:10:55.519
by telling Jones's story and using that as the skeleton

208
00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:58.960
of the narrative that you could really tell so many

209
00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:02.600
different story is about the development of American golf, and

210
00:11:02.840 --> 00:11:06.000
I think that, in fact, you know, proved to be

211
00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:06.519
the case.

212
00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:11.840
Yeah, I'm gonna I don't think you definitely know when

213
00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:14.879
you're on a golf course who it was. I mean, sure,

214
00:11:14.919 --> 00:11:16.879
there's a couple of names, but you know, like when

215
00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:20.639
you talk about baseball or basketball, there's a couple of names,

216
00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:23.159
you know, but then there's everybody else, right, you know,

217
00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:25.360
you don't know when you're on a Robin Nelson course

218
00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:28.879
or a Brad Brewer course, and why would you Right,

219
00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:31.919
it's never the first, But when they're famous courses in

220
00:11:32.039 --> 00:11:36.039
resorts you're going to, it's like they market that absolutely.

221
00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:39.399
And that started with Robert Trent Jones. You don't the

222
00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:40.200
brand name of.

223
00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:43.600
The architect nearly meant virtually nothing in the marketing of

224
00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:47.360
the golf course, the promotion of the golf course to

225
00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:51.320
the public until Jones, until Jones after World War Two,

226
00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:54.000
and then it becomes you know, he sort of sets

227
00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:56.039
the standard that made it possible.

228
00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:57.360
I mean, now, when we think about.

229
00:11:57.159 --> 00:11:59.480
The great designers who were really really popular, I mean

230
00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:03.279
you're thinking about Nicholas and Bozzio and Tom Doak and

231
00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:06.840
cor and Crenshaw and gil Hans. None of those guys

232
00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:11.080
honestly could have had the careers they've had if not

233
00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:11.799
for Robert.

234
00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:13.360
Try Jones, because he created the.

235
00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:17.440
Profession and the model by which they would be successful,

236
00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:21.720
certainly financially, because he started to get major fees, you know,

237
00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:23.759
up to up you know, he was the first to

238
00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:26.279
get a million dollar fee for a golf course design.

239
00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:27.039
Uh.

240
00:12:27.240 --> 00:12:30.679
And before then, I mean, even though Ross and McKenzie

241
00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:33.480
were much in demand, you know, they didn't get paid

242
00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:38.120
anything like Jones would get because Jones created that profession.

243
00:12:44.559 --> 00:12:50.039
It was fascinating to me, h and answer me if

244
00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:52.279
I'm right in assuming this, But it seemed like the

245
00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:58.480
depression helped get him going.

246
00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:03.720
Yeah, absolutely, the New Deal that Franklin Roosevelt started, you know,

247
00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:08.440
besides supporting through the public money and public relief work,

248
00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:10.799
I mean, people that were unemployed were put to work

249
00:13:10.840 --> 00:13:14.519
building roads and go the WPA right of THEPA Works

250
00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:15.519
Progress Administration.

251
00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:18.600
The first money that Jones really started.

252
00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:20.279
To make as a golf course designer was in the

253
00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:24.159
state of New York, involved with WPA programs. There were

254
00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:28.159
a number of WPA courses that were built around the country.

255
00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:30.639
I mean Jones did a couple in New York, he

256
00:13:30.679 --> 00:13:33.440
did one in Florida, he did one in Illinois.

257
00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:36.879
And those jobs paid. I mean, the government was behind them.

258
00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:39.519
Whereas the jobs, the few jobs that he had gotten

259
00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:43.360
between say nineteen thirty and nineteen thirty five, you know,

260
00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:44.600
they were private jobs.

261
00:13:44.679 --> 00:13:47.559
And you know, he was getting stiffed on most of

262
00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:49.799
the most of his bills. I mean he was. If

263
00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:52.799
you at the book, will show and based.

264
00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:55.320
On the correspondence of his business records, I mean, this

265
00:13:55.399 --> 00:13:58.559
guy's living He's living almost the life of a pauper.

266
00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:01.840
He's going into a coffee shop and ordering, you know,

267
00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:04.559
the cheapest bowl of soup and the glass of water.

268
00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:08.519
I mean, he's not making any money whatsoever. And the

269
00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:11.799
wife to be I owned, Tef Davis, who was this

270
00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:14.879
de wutant from New York City. You know, completely different

271
00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:15.960
social classes.

272
00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:17.960
That Jones grew up. He was an immigrant family.

273
00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:21.320
He didn't even have a high school degree. The I

274
00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:24.919
own's father, who was an executive at Bell Telephone in

275
00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:28.279
New York City, wouldn't let his precious little princess marry this,

276
00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:31.960
you know, Robert Jones until.

277
00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:35.639
Immigrant, Yeah, this immigrant, until he could prove he could

278
00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:38.840
make some money. So the WPA really is what lifts

279
00:14:38.919 --> 00:14:43.279
him into So it's a government, its state supported money

280
00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:46.039
that gets him going. And then the great irony of

281
00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:49.279
it is is the end of his career, after a

282
00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:54.039
number of very significant bad investments, which really bankrupted Jones

283
00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:58.039
in the late eighties in the early nineteen nineties, what

284
00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.360
comes along for him and saves his ba the Robert

285
00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:05.039
Trent Jones Trail, which is financed by state by a

286
00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:08.320
state retirement system. So on the front end of his

287
00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:10.960
career at state money and on the back end of his.

288
00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:12.080
Career at state money.

289
00:15:12.440 --> 00:15:15.000
But in between, you know, he had a roller coaster

290
00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:18.240
ride through all kinds of different projects, public and private.

291
00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:23.120
I have a dream to go do the Robert Trent

292
00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:26.399
Jones Trail. It's hard for me to convince any of

293
00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:30.080
my friends to go with me coming from the West coast.

294
00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:32.600
Have you played those courses? Have you played the trail?

295
00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:35.600
There's a few of them that I've not been on,

296
00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:37.120
but we had.

297
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:40.639
There's a Robert Trent Jones Society, a group of clubs

298
00:15:40.679 --> 00:15:44.799
that Jones designs that have come together in the past

299
00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:46.840
five or six years for the annual.

300
00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:49.799
Meeting and they go to different Jones courses and they

301
00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:53.039
played for a few days and last week or last year,

302
00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:53.879
I'm so I'm sorry.

303
00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:57.519
And last year the society decided to come to Alabama,

304
00:15:57.720 --> 00:15:58.639
and many.

305
00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:00.320
Of these members of the Robert MS.

306
00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:04.200
Jones Society never even been in Alabama before, I don't think,

307
00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:07.960
came and they played a couple of different of the

308
00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:11.919
couple different facilities here in the state, and the reaction

309
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:14.840
was was really I mean, they couldn't believe what they

310
00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:15.320
were seeing.

311
00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:19.919
Prices and everything the state of Alabama. You know, there's

312
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:23.240
a lot some of the stereotype is correct. I've lived

313
00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:25.919
in the state and now for twenty six years.

314
00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:29.080
I grew up in Indiana, so some of the stereotypes

315
00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:30.919
are correct, but many of them are not.

316
00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:34.240
And as you know, in terms of the natural.

317
00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:37.960
Beauty and the environment itself, to go from the Appalachians in.

318
00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:39.679
Northeast Alabama all the way down.

319
00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:43.000
To the Gulf Coast in the mobile area, I mean,

320
00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:48.360
and in between, there's big rivers, lakes, rolling terrain, And

321
00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:51.159
that's what makes the trail so interesting.

322
00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:54.080
It's the designs are very common. I mean, they're all

323
00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:58.039
Jones style designs. But the terrain and topography.

324
00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:00.840
You know that because these facilities go from top to

325
00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:04.559
bottom in the state. You know, the gland itself dictates

326
00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:07.480
a lot about golf courses. I'm everywhere, and it certainly

327
00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:10.160
does in the trail. So yeah, you need to convince

328
00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:12.160
your your friends to come down here.

329
00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:14.319
And so if I get if I get a long

330
00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:16.240
weekend and we get a chance to play three or

331
00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:19.079
four of the courses there, which ones would you recommend?

332
00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:20.039
Because I'm taking.

333
00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:21.880
Notes, Well I'm biased. You know.

334
00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:25.920
I live in Auburn and nearby our sister city is

335
00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:29.400
Opalaika and the Grand National Facility.

336
00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:32.880
Almost all of the facilities are fifty four holes. There's

337
00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:36.680
to eighteen hole courses and then a short course and

338
00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:37.839
the short courses are.

339
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:39.799
I mean a short course at Grand National is the

340
00:17:39.880 --> 00:17:43.599
hardest park of the course you'll ever want to play. Really, Oh,

341
00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:46.480
I mean the holes are you know, everything from you know,

342
00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:49.319
from one fifty to two fifty in distance and.

343
00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:52.640
It's all around this lake and the carries and bunk.

344
00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:55.480
I mean, it's it's a really really difficult short course.

345
00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:58.039
But I would start, I would come to Auburn. I

346
00:17:58.039 --> 00:18:00.359
mean it's we're only an hour and fifteen minutes from.

347
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:03.799
Atlanta, so you can Atlanta Airport so you can find Atlanta,

348
00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.680
get over here to Auburn real easily, and then grafts

349
00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:11.559
drive over a fifty minute drive from Auburn over to Montgomery.

350
00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:13.839
Just north of Montgomery is a little.

351
00:18:13.559 --> 00:18:17.519
Town called Prattville, And Prattville has a fifty four whole

352
00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:19.720
facility that's.

353
00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:21.000
Called and it's.

354
00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:23.720
Called the Capital, and it's kind of the home base

355
00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:26.799
of the trail since the retirement systems of Alabama, and

356
00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:30.519
is located in Montgomery. So I would do that if

357
00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:33.680
you only had two or three days. But if you

358
00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:36.759
were talking to people from Montgomery, they would say for

359
00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:40.759
you to come to Montgomery because there's two trail facilities

360
00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:44.720
right there. There's ross Bridge that has hosted a Senior Open,

361
00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:48.920
a senior event for many years, and then there's Oxmore

362
00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:52.759
Valley as well, and then Birmingham itself has Birmingham had

363
00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:55.640
some has some great golf. Birmingham country Club is Donald

364
00:18:55.759 --> 00:19:00.160
Ross Courses. Of course, there's the Nicholas Course that as

365
00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:01.920
hosted a PGA.

366
00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:04.640
So Alabama's got a lot of great golf.

367
00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:07.759
Unfortunately, we get to play pretty much year round, except

368
00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:11.400
for you, except for maybe a few weeks in the

369
00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:13.359
middle middle of winter when it gets a little too

370
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:15.279
cold or we get a dusting of snow.

371
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:18.240
But what about spring, summer, fall, which would be the

372
00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:19.599
best time to come fall?

373
00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:23.960
I have question fall, and then you can also benefit

374
00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:25.880
from SEC football.

375
00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:27.960
You can. We'll get you to a.

376
00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:30.400
You know, an Auburn football game or an Alabama game,

377
00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:32.640
and you'll see what SEC.

378
00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:33.720
Football is all about.

379
00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:35.640
I went to Wio Date for graduate school, so I know,

380
00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:38.400
you know, I know what Big ten football is, and

381
00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:41.519
I know it's it's very popular, and you know it's

382
00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:46.400
got a lot of fanatics. But SEC football is such pageantry.

383
00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:48.720
I don't think there's anything compared to it. So if

384
00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:51.119
you came down in the fall, sometime in October and

385
00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:53.559
we could get you at a night game, say LSU

386
00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:56.000
at Auburn. You'd have a And we did that when

387
00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:58.440
the Roberts and Jones society people came, and I can

388
00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:02.160
tell you, to a man, these gentlemen or I mean,

389
00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:04.759
they talked as much about going to that football game

390
00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:06.880
as they did playing the golf courses.

391
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:10.200
Awesome. I'm gonna I'm gonna get in touch with you

392
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:12.000
before we come down and you're coming with us.

393
00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:14.599
Absolutely, you know that would be great.

394
00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:18.759
That would be so much fun. So I'm I'm curious,

395
00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:24.359
did you in writing this book and choosing him, did

396
00:20:24.359 --> 00:20:27.799
you like him more before you started writing the book

397
00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:30.119
or after you started writing the book.

398
00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:34.799
That's a really good and tough question for me to answer,

399
00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:38.079
because I think anyone who reads it will know that

400
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:42.039
I've given a kind of a warts and all profile

401
00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:43.000
of mister Jones.

402
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:43.559
Huh.

403
00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:48.160
He's not a perfect person. Who is? But he is?

404
00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:49.839
But he would tell you he is.

405
00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:50.759
Yeah.

406
00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:53.640
I got the sense his ego is enormous.

407
00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:55.720
Yeah yeah, yeah, And I've.

408
00:20:55.519 --> 00:21:01.279
Met I met Junior, and his ego has filled the room. Yeah.

409
00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:03.720
Well, I think maybe even more so than the data

410
00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:07.240
in that case, But no, I honestly like I like

411
00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:11.160
Jones a lot. I mean, when you you know, I

412
00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:13.640
lived the life of Jones. When I write the book,

413
00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:16.160
you know, that's just kind of what the biographer has

414
00:21:16.200 --> 00:21:18.720
to do. You lived the life of the person. And

415
00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:22.000
there are times when you regret decisions.

416
00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:22.880
That he made or did not make.

417
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:25.960
And I could go through you know, some of them

418
00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:29.759
are mistakes that he made in terms of business investments,

419
00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:33.200
you know, some were mistakes, and the ones that bothered

420
00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:35.519
me the most were things that had to do with

421
00:21:35.720 --> 00:21:39.599
you know, with personal issues. I mean early on, for example,

422
00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:43.920
his career got started because he became an associate of

423
00:21:43.960 --> 00:21:47.759
a Canadian architect by the name of Stanley Thompson, very prominent,

424
00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:51.079
probably the most prominent Canadian architect and one of the

425
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:55.039
great architects really ever in the world. And Jones as

426
00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:58.359
a young man, because he didn't have any credentials, the

427
00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:01.960
clubs that were interested and maybe using Jones wanted to

428
00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:05.680
have Someboddy with experience looking over Jones's shoulder at least,

429
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:09.279
and so Jones went into a partnership with Stanley Thompson,

430
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:10.119
you know, as.

431
00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:12.000
Soon as he went into business in nineteen.

432
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:15.079
Thirty and Thompson really treated it with treated him like

433
00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:19.039
a son and treated and gave him a lot of business.

434
00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:22.319
And then there came a time after Jones, you know,

435
00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:25.079
was getting these jobs through the New Deal money and

436
00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:28.720
all of that, when Thompson wanted Jones's help, wanted him

437
00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:31.240
to come down to South America to help him do

438
00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:34.160
some work down there. And it seems like Jones kind

439
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:37.400
of committed to doing that, and then he didn't do it,

440
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:40.400
and he kind of, you know, when he needed Thompson,

441
00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:42.359
he used him, and then when he didn't need him,

442
00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:42.960
he kind.

443
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:43.759
Of ignored him, you know.

444
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:47.039
And so there were certain things that happened, you know,

445
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:49.799
in that way as a biographer, you know, living the

446
00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:51.920
life of the person that you're studying, where you say,

447
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:55.319
why are you doing that? You know, I didn't go

448
00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:58.039
ahead and do that. You had promised Stanley you were

449
00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:00.799
going to Brazil and now your opping out on it.

450
00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:03.359
You know, So you do do things like that. But

451
00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:08.200
in the end, I mean, I certainly admire what he did,

452
00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:11.960
and I you know, have greater appreciations or what it

453
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:14.720
takes to design and build golf courses. I learned a

454
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:19.880
lot about the processes of that and do I like

455
00:23:19.960 --> 00:23:22.440
him anymore or less. I think I probably have to

456
00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:25.039
say I value him more because I have a greater

457
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:28.920
deeper understanding of the man and and what motivated him.

458
00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:31.599
And you know, I certainly.

459
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.200
I can tell you one thing may seem a little

460
00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:37.559
a little strange, But I played the Cornell course that

461
00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:40.519
he designed, if I played by myself one evening when I.

462
00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:42.839
Was doing archival research, and I sneaked out.

463
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:44.440
And I think I was the only one in the

464
00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:47.720
course that was kind of raining, and I kind of

465
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:49.039
pretended I was playing the.

466
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:50.799
Golf with with Robert Trent Jones.

467
00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:52.920
It was his golf course, and you know, I was

468
00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:55.400
kind of just in my mind imagining what kind of

469
00:23:55.400 --> 00:23:57.720
conversation I would have, what he would tell me about

470
00:23:57.759 --> 00:23:59.480
this hole or that bunker.

471
00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:02.160
And so you do sort of develop kind of this.

472
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:06.759
Personal relationship with the person you're studying, because you just know,

473
00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:09.240
you know, there's not much about them that you don't know.

474
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:12.880
And through my oral interviews, I you know, had long

475
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:16.559
interviews with both of his sons and with other people

476
00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:20.200
that worked for him, and with had all those love letters,

477
00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:22.720
and I had on along interviews with the man who

478
00:24:22.839 --> 00:24:25.920
was his personal physician for many years, so you just

479
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:26.799
really get.

480
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:27.519
To know the person.

481
00:24:27.559 --> 00:24:30.000
And I'd have a hard time in writing a biography

482
00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:32.359
of somebody that I just detested. I mean, like, I

483
00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:36.799
couldn't imagine imagine writing Adolf Hitler's biography. There have been

484
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:38.400
a bunch of them, so they don't we don't need

485
00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:40.480
one of those. But I don't think I could write

486
00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:44.200
one of someone that I just I just had totally

487
00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:47.519
you know, despise. And that's certainly not the case with

488
00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:51.559
mister Jones. I find him, you know, very endearing. I

489
00:24:51.640 --> 00:24:55.160
just I regret some of the foibles in his personality

490
00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:58.160
and some of the choices that he made. But if

491
00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:01.559
someone did my biography, they they find even more to

492
00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:02.279
complain about.

493
00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:14.119
The prolific and very successful biographer, Doris Kruns Goodwin is

494
00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:17.240
said that she feels like she has to go to

495
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:19.839
bed and wake up with this person. You you like,

496
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:22.759
you said, you just live your life with this Harrison.

497
00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:26.799
And so there are presidents you know that we're herd topic.

498
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:29.160
There are presidents that she just doesn't want to go

499
00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:31.400
near because she just doesn't think she could go to

500
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:32.519
bed with them every night.

501
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:35.559
Yeah, you do, and they keep you up you know,

502
00:25:35.559 --> 00:25:37.079
they keep you from going to bed too.

503
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:39.519
I mean, my my the working habits.

504
00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:43.200
You know, I've become very obsessive in when I'm writing

505
00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:45.839
a book and my family. I mean, I'm I can't

506
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:49.920
my family just so, I'm almost impossible because everything I'm

507
00:25:50.039 --> 00:25:54.119
talking about, I'm just constantly thinking about the character that

508
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:56.400
I'm writing about, and I want to share and you know,

509
00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:59.920
what I'm learning, and and they, you know, and unfortunately

510
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:03.000
a family's been very supportive, but you know, at times.

511
00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:04.480
I'm sure they just get Dad.

512
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:06.599
You've got to you know, You're you're going on too long.

513
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:08.319
Let's move on to another topic.

514
00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:08.759
Leads.

515
00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:14.119
Enough about him, what about me? No, he you mentioned

516
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:18.480
he didn't have credentials before he started working with Stanley Thompson.

517
00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:22.799
I mean, he really wasn't very well educated, if at all.

518
00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:24.960
He didn't go to college. He didn't have it. He

519
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:29.160
was able to convince Cornell to yeah, to start a

520
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:32.000
program to teach him how to do this. I mean,

521
00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:34.519
he really was focused on wanting to be a golf course.

522
00:26:34.359 --> 00:26:38.559
Architect, absolutely, And it wasn't that they convinced him to

523
00:26:38.599 --> 00:26:40.960
start a program. It was basically that just they would

524
00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:43.920
give him special admission status to take just those courses

525
00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:46.640
that he thought he might need, you know, some agronomy,

526
00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:50.759
some landscape architecture, some business courses, some public speaking was

527
00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:52.200
a course he thought he needed to take.

528
00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:54.200
So he took two years of courses.

529
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:56.400
And the way that it worked out, because remember, here's

530
00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:58.960
a guy that doesn't have a high school degree. How

531
00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:01.400
does he get into an ivy league school like Cornell?

532
00:27:01.880 --> 00:27:03.720
And the way it happened, and this is what golf

533
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:04.559
can do for people.

534
00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:08.559
Jones had as a young man in his early twenties,

535
00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:11.559
got a position up at Soda Spay on Lake, Ontario,

536
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:14.960
a little golf course there. And one of the members

537
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:17.839
at so To Spey was a man named James Bashford

538
00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:21.720
who was the owner of a vinegar factory, and he

539
00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:23.839
was kind of a wealthy man, and he had been

540
00:27:23.880 --> 00:27:28.160
a Cornell graduate. Well, it just so happens that, you know, Jones,

541
00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:32.160
as the club pro and manager of this course at

542
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:36.960
Soda Spay gets he befriends mister Bashford, tells mister Bashford

543
00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:39.880
about his interests, and mister Bashford, you know, being a

544
00:27:39.880 --> 00:27:44.000
wealthy and influential person and a Cornell grad, said well,

545
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:46.519
let's see what I can do for you. So he

546
00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:50.759
takes Jones down to Ithaca in his limsine and has

547
00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:53.559
an appointment made with the Dean of Agriculture. And it's

548
00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:59.359
really through Bashford's intercession that Jones is permitted to do this.

549
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:02.359
Jones learns from that, I mean, maybe he knew it

550
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:07.759
even before, but throughout his air Jones cultivates friendships with

551
00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:10.039
powerful people, I mean the state in the state of

552
00:28:10.039 --> 00:28:14.799
New York. When he's working on these w these PWWPA projects.

553
00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:17.839
He needs to have James Evans, and he needs to have.

554
00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:23.319
Robert Moses, the central figures in the New York State

555
00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:27.039
Park System. He needs to have them on his side

556
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:30.759
to give him these jobs. So he very consciously goes

557
00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:36.519
about cultivating friendships with powerful people. It's going to be

558
00:28:36.759 --> 00:28:38.839
I mean, all through his career. You can just make

559
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:42.319
a long, long list of the important people that Jones

560
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:46.319
cultivates friendships with, because it all started with James Bashford

561
00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:49.039
taking this young guy down to Cornell and getting him

562
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:51.519
into some courses that he would never have gotten in

563
00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:52.119
on his own.

564
00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:57.079
Clearly, the man was opportunistic, and we've already covered the

565
00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:01.279
egotistic part. What kind of family man was he what

566
00:29:01.400 --> 00:29:03.039
was his family life like.

567
00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:07.079
It was kind of an absentee landlord. He was gone,

568
00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:09.720
I mean by that. The boys were born in nineteen

569
00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:12.880
thirty nine, Robert and Jones Junior in thirty nine, and

570
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:18.000
Rhys Jones in forty one, and Jones's career really picks up,

571
00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:21.359
you know, in the post World War Two period, and

572
00:29:21.400 --> 00:29:23.640
by the early fifties when the boys are just turning

573
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:24.440
into their.

574
00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:26.599
Teens, he's he's everywhere.

575
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:29.640
I mean, he's designing twenty different courses a year in

576
00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:32.519
different parts of the country, and then you know, before

577
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:36.359
long he's off into the Caribbean and then points beyond.

578
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:40.359
So he's not home very much, honestly, and the task

579
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:43.559
of raising the boys really fell to his wife.

580
00:29:43.400 --> 00:29:47.599
I own and Jones. When he was home, you know, he.

581
00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:49.839
Would be Golf was always kind of part of it.

582
00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:51.680
You know, he would take the boys to the driving

583
00:29:51.799 --> 00:29:54.240
range in the evening where if they were having a

584
00:29:54.279 --> 00:29:57.279
family vacation, it would really be down to a work side.

585
00:29:57.359 --> 00:29:59.559
If he was working on a course at Myrtle.

586
00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:02.960
Beach or you know, down in Florida, the family would

587
00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:05.079
jump in the car with him, but he would still

588
00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:09.000
be basically working. So you know, and not a father

589
00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:12.319
that was you know, really hands on very much with

590
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:16.039
his boys, and the whole issue of the few that

591
00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:20.480
develops between the two sons, and it gets very very

592
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:23.519
and it still is. It's something that will never get resolved,

593
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:26.400
and the book sort of goes into the some of

594
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:29.559
the issues of how this family sort of becomes dysfunctional.

595
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:34.160
Jones not being there, not being hands on, I think

596
00:30:34.279 --> 00:30:37.240
is part of is part of the explanation for that.

597
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:38.960
I don't I don't think he was a bad father.

598
00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:41.440
I think he was just like a lot of fathers

599
00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:43.880
maybe of that generation in particular.

600
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:45.960
Who who you know, where a career.

601
00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:49.000
Was put first and his love of golf was put first,

602
00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:54.319
and his ambitions which required all kinds of travel. The

603
00:30:54.400 --> 00:30:58.359
boys just you know, they they just sort of grew up,

604
00:30:58.599 --> 00:31:00.759
you know, on their own with their other but then

605
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:02.160
they went to work for their dad.

606
00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:04.519
Yeah, it's like, how did it get to the point

607
00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:07.880
where they're both going, that's what I want to do dad,

608
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:10.960
you know. Yeah, that's amazing to me that if they

609
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:13.799
don't have a close relationship and he's an absentee guy,

610
00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:16.720
that they still see this as glamorous enough to I

611
00:31:16.759 --> 00:31:17.720
want to go do that too.

612
00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:18.960
Yeah, it is.

613
00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:22.200
That is a very interesting issue. I think for the

614
00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:25.279
oldest son it's maybe a little bit easier to understand.

615
00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:27.960
He is the namesake. He's Robert tren Jones junior.

616
00:31:28.599 --> 00:31:31.559
He's quite a good golfer as a young as a boy,

617
00:31:31.640 --> 00:31:34.440
he plays in a lot of tournament events, and plays

618
00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:36.839
high school golf on a championship team, and goes to

619
00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:38.640
Yale and plays on the Yale team.

620
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:42.519
So he's and the two boys. In fifty four.

621
00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:45.279
When the openers played at Baltus Royal, Jones took the

622
00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:49.359
two boys as teenagers. And one thing that Jones did,

623
00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:52.920
which was unprecedented for the USGA at the time, was

624
00:31:53.240 --> 00:31:57.240
he was keeping track of driving distances for the pros.

625
00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:01.279
Very systematic measurements and record kept of how far the

626
00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:04.240
pros were driving the ball, because Jones wanted to know

627
00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:07.759
when he was remodeling a course or designing a new one,

628
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:09.759
where those fairway bunkers.

629
00:32:09.400 --> 00:32:09.880
Needed to be.

630
00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:12.559
You know, if they some of the in the old

631
00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:16.279
classic courses of ross, for example, or chillinghasts, the bunkers

632
00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:19.640
might have been out between two hundred and two twenty. Well,

633
00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:22.039
you know, all the pros are driving over that and

634
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:24.359
so when Jones came in to redo the courses, he

635
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:26.759
had to have measurements. Well, he would take the boys

636
00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:28.680
along and they would sort of chase the balls down

637
00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:31.400
for him, you know, they would help he was. They

638
00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:33.960
were allowed inside the ropes when ropes were first used,

639
00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:38.039
I think, which was at Valdskaul, and so the boys,

640
00:32:38.119 --> 00:32:40.359
you know, they got to see they were taken to

641
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:44.599
the Masters a couple of times, so they got to experience.

642
00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:45.920
Golf at a very high level.

643
00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:49.279
But Bobby wasn't, you know, oldest wasn't planning to be

644
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:53.359
a golf architect. He went to law school at Stanford,

645
00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:57.200
and you know his version is that he you know,

646
00:32:57.240 --> 00:33:01.720
he kind of lost lost interest in and another version

647
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:04.759
might be that he funked out. But he decided at

648
00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:07.160
that point that he was going to you know, that

649
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:08.759
he was going to go to work for his dad,

650
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:12.119
but not on the East coast where the Jones operation

651
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:14.799
was based, which was in Montclair, New Jersey. But he

652
00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:16.880
was going to stay out in California and create a

653
00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:20.319
West coast office in Palo Alto, which is what he did.

654
00:33:20.920 --> 00:33:21.119
Uh.

655
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:24.400
And it didn't take long for Jones Junior to sort

656
00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:27.200
of go his own way. You know, he learned it,

657
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:30.599
learned it from his dad, but he, you know, he

658
00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:32.720
wanted to be out on his own. And the book

659
00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:35.559
goes into some detail about the process by which Bobby,

660
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:39.319
you know, uses this West Coast office which was ostensibly

661
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:43.119
to be you know, an expansion of Robert turn Jones, Inc.

662
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:47.119
The parent company, while Bob.

663
00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:49.759
Goes on to use that base to create his own,

664
00:33:49.960 --> 00:33:53.599
you know, his own company. Reese is the more interesting question,

665
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:56.720
you know, the younger brother. Why would the younger brother,

666
00:33:56.799 --> 00:34:00.440
who's having issues with the older brother, why would he

667
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:02.559
try to become a golf architect too.

668
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:04.880
I mean, I have an older.

669
00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:06.799
Brother and the last thing I tried to do when

670
00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:08.760
I grew up is, you know, I needed to do

671
00:34:08.840 --> 00:34:12.480
something very different from him.

672
00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:14.280
And yeah, but Reese wasn't like that.

673
00:34:14.360 --> 00:34:17.199
In fact, Reese, honestly he he had the idea of

674
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:20.119
being a golf course architect, probably before Bobby did, and

675
00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:24.199
because when he went after he graduated from Yale, he

676
00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:27.280
decided to go into a landscape architecture.

677
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:29.400
Program at Harvard, which which he did, and.

678
00:34:29.320 --> 00:34:33.400
So he was intending even I saw his letter when

679
00:34:33.400 --> 00:34:37.000
he was applying for college, and he was talking to

680
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:40.000
golf course architect and following his father's footsteps even then.

681
00:34:40.519 --> 00:34:43.440
So Reese kind of just has decided to do this

682
00:34:43.480 --> 00:34:47.039
even before Bob. But Bob, you know, because things didn't

683
00:34:47.079 --> 00:34:50.159
work out with the law, Bob decides, well, and he's

684
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:52.519
got the name after all, I mean, he's got he's

685
00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:56.880
right there with Robert Trent Jones, so he decides that

686
00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:59.519
that's the best career for him as well.

687
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:09.599
Are there three distinct different styles between the Joneses on

688
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:11.039
their on their design work.

689
00:35:11.800 --> 00:35:15.800
Well, that's really a great question. I think that you know,

690
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:17.199
I've played all a.

691
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:20.400
Number of all three, and there's certainly some things in

692
00:35:20.440 --> 00:35:24.559
common between the father and the two sons, but there

693
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:27.639
are also some clear distinctions, and there's some clear distinctions

694
00:35:27.639 --> 00:35:28.800
between Reese.

695
00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:30.199
And and and Bobby.

696
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:35.039
I think Bobby, you know, is is you know, probably

697
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:39.079
he's he's less into doing the championship courses, although he

698
00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:41.360
did in Chambers Bay, out.

699
00:35:41.199 --> 00:35:42.800
In Jugit Sound, Washington.

700
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:45.239
You know, it's going to host the Open in a

701
00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:47.599
couple of years, and so it's not that he's uninterested

702
00:35:47.599 --> 00:35:50.559
in championship designs. But Reese, you know, kind of took

703
00:35:50.599 --> 00:35:53.079
on the mantle of his father of the Open Doctor

704
00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:55.519
and has been used by the u U, s g

705
00:35:55.639 --> 00:35:57.440
A and the p g A, you know a number

706
00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:01.880
of times to to redo championship courses. One thing that's

707
00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:05.679
really interesting about Reese's courses, the redesigns that he does

708
00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:09.039
of his dad's, is that, uh, he changes his dad's

709
00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:11.199
courses in some pretty significant ways.

710
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:13.159
And when the father was still living.

711
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:18.800
There's some correspondence, for example, about Congressional that that mister

712
00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:23.000
Jones had redesigned back in the sixties, and then Reese

713
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:26.280
comes in and does a couple you know, major remodelings

714
00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:29.320
at Congressional in the eighties and nineties that when mister

715
00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:32.079
Jones is still living, he's writing letters to to Reee

716
00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:35.480
kind of complaining about what Reese is doing to his courses.

717
00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:39.480
And so there is you know, Bobby suspects, I don't

718
00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:42.079
really take it quite this far, but you know, Bobby

719
00:36:42.679 --> 00:36:48.039
suspects that Reese was sort of consciously or unconsciously undoing

720
00:36:48.239 --> 00:36:49.760
some of his dad's designs.

721
00:36:49.880 --> 00:36:50.639
You know that he was.

722
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:53.960
He was he wanted them different, he wanted them to change,

723
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:56.559
he wanted them to be distinctive of his own style.

724
00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:59.519
And and I think there is there is some truth

725
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:02.840
truth to that. So yeah, you can tell the differences

726
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:06.480
between between the three, but there are also some some

727
00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:09.320
similarities as well, because they all kind of learned.

728
00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:11.559
I mean, the boy learned a.

729
00:37:11.559 --> 00:37:13.719
Lot about courses are not just from their dad, but

730
00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:16.800
from the super from the men who were in charge

731
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:20.159
of building Jones's golf courses, a man by Bill by

732
00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:24.880
the name of John Schmeiser and Bill Baldwin. And since

733
00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:27.199
the boys didn't want to listen to the dad that much,

734
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:30.760
that wasn't especially true. In the case of Reese, the

735
00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:35.039
father put his construction form in charge of basically showing

736
00:37:35.239 --> 00:37:38.639
recent body how how you build golf courses, and so

737
00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:42.920
they learn, you know, the logistics and the nuts and

738
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:47.159
bolts of golf course construction really from the same same people,

739
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:49.360
and that that meant a lot of carryover.

740
00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:53.079
So then what happened between the two brothers.

741
00:37:54.440 --> 00:37:57.239
Well, it goes it goes back to their boyhood. I

742
00:37:57.400 --> 00:37:58.480
I you know, I don't.

743
00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:02.440
I would have to be a professional psychologist really to

744
00:38:02.599 --> 00:38:07.519
explain what it is. I think Bobby as a young

745
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:11.239
as a boy and going into his teenage years, I

746
00:38:11.239 --> 00:38:15.880
think Bobby just became Bobby, and you know, Bobby had,

747
00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:19.800
has a strong ego, has strong ambitions of his own,

748
00:38:20.039 --> 00:38:23.079
and he's not the kind of you know, he would

749
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:24.880
be a hard you know, he would be a hard

750
00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:27.719
older brother to have. And I think it was hard

751
00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:31.599
for Reese from the beginning because Bobby wasn't a protecting,

752
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:36.760
you know, supportive, you know, he was just a difficult

753
00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:40.440
older brother to have in a lot of ways. And

754
00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:43.079
it just got worse and worse once they started, you know,

755
00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:46.280
once they were in business with their dad, the differences

756
00:38:46.360 --> 00:38:48.840
they had, the differences of opinion that they had over

757
00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:50.360
how the parent companies.

758
00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:53.159
Should be should be handled, and then when they both.

759
00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:56.719
Separated, they there were really hard feelings about how those

760
00:38:56.760 --> 00:39:00.199
separations took place. I mean, Reese was very upset with

761
00:38:59.800 --> 00:39:03.280
the way Bobby. He feels Bobby had taken advantage of

762
00:39:03.320 --> 00:39:06.239
his dad when he went out on his own.

763
00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:08.519
And then it just continues.

764
00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:12.159
I mean that they've suit each other a number of times,

765
00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:16.280
and they don't really have anything to do with one

766
00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:19.639
another at all. And that made my book very challenging,

767
00:39:19.719 --> 00:39:21.440
you know, because here I am in the middle of

768
00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:24.519
the two of them trying to write an objective, you know,

769
00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:28.000
third party account of their father's life, and I can't

770
00:39:28.039 --> 00:39:30.400
really tell that story without telling the story of the

771
00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:31.119
whole family.

772
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:32.920
And somehow I've got.

773
00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:36.880
To walk the tightrope between you know, two very talented

774
00:39:38.239 --> 00:39:43.679
and experienced men in their field. But somehow I have

775
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:46.000
to be able to work with both of them and

776
00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:49.320
get them to both help me understand what their father's

777
00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:50.320
life was about.

778
00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:53.159
And understand what's going on in the family. So it was.

779
00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:55.559
It was by far the most difficult book, you know,

780
00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:59.719
I've ever I've ever written. And there are people that

781
00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:02.800
know a bit about the Jones stories, either because they're

782
00:40:02.840 --> 00:40:06.320
golf writers or a fellow golf architects, who have sort

783
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:09.599
of said to me in private, they just never thought a.

784
00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:11.320
Book like this could ever get done.

785
00:40:11.480 --> 00:40:14.679
That you know, there had been earlier attempts and the

786
00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:19.119
problems dealing with Bobby and Reese on a project like this,

787
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:23.199
or you know, some people felt were just insurmountable, and somehow,

788
00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:26.400
some way I was able to do it. I you know,

789
00:40:26.440 --> 00:40:29.239
I have to. I could write a book about writing

790
00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:29.599
the book.

791
00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:32.000
Honestly, Wow, the stories that.

792
00:40:31.960 --> 00:40:35.280
I could tell, maybe someday I'll I'll.

793
00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:40.039
That's why you're here, my friend. I want the stories.

794
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:43.280
Well, there are some real, real stories.

795
00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:46.400
And do you write as you're doing your research, or

796
00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:51.119
do you combine, do all your due diligence and gather

797
00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:54.320
all the information, throw it down and start writing at

798
00:40:54.360 --> 00:40:55.159
that point.

799
00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:57.239
Yeah, it's kind of a combination of the two.

800
00:40:57.400 --> 00:41:00.800
Certainly, when you're writing, you know, it's the fighting process

801
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:03.239
shows you where you have gaps in the story that

802
00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:05.880
you need to fill in, So you know, I often

803
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:10.000
have to pause, you know, and reconsider and go back

804
00:41:10.039 --> 00:41:13.760
and find more documents, or call you know, somebody up

805
00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:16.280
that's call one of the brothers up, or call you.

806
00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:17.480
A key figure that I.

807
00:41:17.480 --> 00:41:19.239
That was important to the book is a man named

808
00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:23.280
Roger Rulwich, who was who worked for mister Jones from

809
00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:27.039
nineteen sixty one into the mid nineties when he was

810
00:41:27.320 --> 00:41:31.280
let go, and so he worked as Jones's chief junior

811
00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:36.199
designer for thirty years, and of course worked with the

812
00:41:36.199 --> 00:41:40.000
brothers closely for a long time and is a friend

813
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:42.159
of Reese's, not so much a friend of Bobby's. So

814
00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:44.400
there would be times when you know, a question about

815
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:47.119
a golf course came up, and I would get on

816
00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:50.400
the phone and call Roger up in Massachusetts and ask

817
00:41:50.519 --> 00:41:53.199
him if he could answer this or that. So it's

818
00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:55.239
kind of an ongoing thing. You start with a base

819
00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:57.480
of research, and you know, I spent three summers in

820
00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:01.679
Cornell going through what really as a massive collection. I mean,

821
00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:06.159
it's equivalent to like if you had three hundred file

822
00:42:06.280 --> 00:42:09.880
cabinet drawers stuffed full of stuff.

823
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:12.960
That's it's essentially what I had to look.

824
00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:16.440
Through and not and beyond that, you know, since it's

825
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:18.960
we're talking about an architect you know, they have these

826
00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:20.679
cardboard tubes.

827
00:42:20.360 --> 00:42:23.119
You know, that are six feet long that are that

828
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:25.480
are full of drawings, you know, rolled up.

829
00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:28.440
Sketches and blueprints and so forth, of all the different courses.

830
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:31.920
Now I didn't use that kind of I didn't use those.

831
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:35.679
Architectural drawings nearly as much as I use the regular documents.

832
00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:37.320
But from time to time I would have a question

833
00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:40.000
about a course design and how it might have changed,

834
00:42:40.039 --> 00:42:41.719
and I would have to, you know, go back into

835
00:42:41.719 --> 00:42:43.880
the architectural drawings as well.

836
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:45.400
So it's just a you know, it took.

837
00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:49.000
It took those three summers, and even then, you know,

838
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:52.639
I can't say that I looked at everything. You sort

839
00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:57.599
of have to sample, you know, the files, and sometimes

840
00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:02.159
you see a file, and it's and its title is

841
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:04.880
something you don't think is really going to help you much, and.

842
00:43:04.840 --> 00:43:06.320
So you might skip that one.

843
00:43:06.440 --> 00:43:09.239
But you know, I suppose out if you say, here's

844
00:43:09.239 --> 00:43:12.800
one hundred percent of the Jones material, I suppose I

845
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:15.440
looked at eighty percent of it, you know, and hopefully

846
00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:17.039
the twenty percent that.

847
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:19.320
I didn't look at, you know, either.

848
00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:21.960
Somebody else can make use of it someday or it

849
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:25.400
really wasn't you know that bible to me telling the story.

850
00:43:25.639 --> 00:43:28.960
It's a five hundred page book anyway, so you know,

851
00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:31.800
more research would have just resulted in more pages.

852
00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:40.320
So from the time you decided to write the book

853
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:43.199
until you handed the final draft of the publisher, how

854
00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:45.599
long a period was that, I.

855
00:43:45.559 --> 00:43:48.800
Would say just less than two years, and.

856
00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:51.239
Your full time job in the interim.

857
00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:53.559
Well, fortunately I had just come out of a six

858
00:43:53.639 --> 00:43:57.800
year term as the director of the Honors College at Auburn,

859
00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:01.079
and thanks to that administrative service, I had earned a

860
00:44:01.159 --> 00:44:04.599
year of paid leave. Wow, and so the university haging

861
00:44:04.760 --> 00:44:07.239
and so I made Without that, I couldn't the book

862
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:09.320
wouldn't have been done yet. So I had a year

863
00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:13.239
and and you know, and I work. When I start

864
00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:16.880
to write, you know, it's it can be. You know,

865
00:44:17.119 --> 00:44:19.239
I don't necessarily get up too early, but I had

866
00:44:19.280 --> 00:44:21.800
lots of nights that were till three and four in

867
00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:24.599
the morning. And as Doris Currins Goodwin said, you you know,

868
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:27.639
you go to bed and sometimes even dream. You know,

869
00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:29.960
there are things in your dreams that are related to

870
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:32.639
what you're doing. Your mind is just so full of

871
00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:36.880
the facts and questions. You know that you're just constantly

872
00:44:37.159 --> 00:44:39.239
it's constantly agitating.

873
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:40.119
In your mind one way or the other.

874
00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:42.920
And it's an interesting it's a very interesting process to

875
00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:43.440
go through.

876
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:48.719
But it's also it's somewhat tortuous, you know, it really is.

877
00:44:49.639 --> 00:44:53.360
You know, it's a difficult I give I gave up

878
00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:54.639
golf through most of that.

879
00:44:54.760 --> 00:44:55.280
I didn't know.

880
00:44:55.239 --> 00:44:57.440
That's you know, I was thinking, I'm listening do you

881
00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:00.599
explain this and saying you had a year off? How

882
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:02.559
diligent were you? How many days you just want to

883
00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:03.960
go I'm just going to forget it. I'm just going

884
00:45:04.039 --> 00:45:04.840
to go play golf today.

885
00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:08.320
There weren't many days like that. Oh my god, you're

886
00:45:08.599 --> 00:45:10.400
the well.

887
00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:14.199
No, I think manic maybe either, you know, I kept

888
00:45:14.239 --> 00:45:17.039
looking down the road. I kept saying when this book's done,

889
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:19.599
I should be have I should be having a lot

890
00:45:19.639 --> 00:45:23.559
of opportunities, you know, hopefully getting invitations to go play

891
00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:26.599
some of these golf courses that I'm writing about. And

892
00:45:26.599 --> 00:45:29.400
and so I'm hoping, and I think it's it's starting

893
00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:32.079
to happen. I'm already getting some invitations from some of

894
00:45:32.119 --> 00:45:33.599
the Jones clubs to.

895
00:45:33.559 --> 00:45:34.880
Come and talk about the book.

896
00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:39.000
And yeah, and I'm more than willing to come. So

897
00:45:39.039 --> 00:45:43.000
if you haven't contacted me yet, please do so, because

898
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:45.239
I'd love to. I haven't played Hazel Team, I haven't

899
00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:48.719
played Bell Reeve. You know, There's just so many Jones

900
00:45:48.800 --> 00:45:52.239
courses that I haven't played. And and I you know,

901
00:45:52.280 --> 00:45:54.920
so I'm going to try to make up for some

902
00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:58.039
of those golf rounds I didn't get to play.

903
00:45:58.199 --> 00:46:02.400
As prolific as he was. And as we established how

904
00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:05.960
full of himself he may have been, are there courses

905
00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:07.800
that he takes credit for that he shouldn't.

906
00:46:10.360 --> 00:46:13.679
Well, his sons would say courses that they designed rather

907
00:46:13.719 --> 00:46:14.119
than him.

908
00:46:15.320 --> 00:46:17.960
Is it the other way around? It's like the sounds

909
00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:19.280
these are ours?

910
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:21.880
Well, yeah, there's there's there's a little bit of both.

911
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:24.199
I mean, it was very at the end of the book,

912
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:26.639
there's an appendix where I list all the golf courses

913
00:46:26.840 --> 00:46:31.719
that Joan Design designed or remodeled, and the trying to

914
00:46:31.719 --> 00:46:35.360
define which ones to use is really is really challenging.

915
00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:38.519
And what I ended up using as a criterion for

916
00:46:38.599 --> 00:46:43.000
that appendix was, was the course done under contract to

917
00:46:43.079 --> 00:46:45.960
Robert Trent Jones Inc. You know, that's the main company,

918
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:48.920
that's the New Jersey based company. And if it was

919
00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:51.559
done by Robert Trent Jones, Inc. You know, then I

920
00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:54.239
think it deserves to be on the list. And Roger rule,

921
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:57.199
which you agreed with me, that that was the only

922
00:46:57.280 --> 00:47:00.360
sensible way to do it. Of course, doing it that

923
00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:05.039
way it means that a course, say like Eugene Country

924
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:09.039
Club or the renovation was done there, or a number of.

925
00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:10.719
Courses that Bobby was involved with.

926
00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:13.159
You know, Bobby would have done most of most of

927
00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:16.000
the work, but it was done under contractor Robert Trent Jones, Inc.

928
00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:19.239
So my position is, well, they both can.

929
00:47:19.119 --> 00:47:20.239
Count them, you know if they want.

930
00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:22.599
If you're counting courses, you know, if you want to

931
00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:25.400
do something like that, then if it's under contract to

932
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:28.679
the main company, you know, in most of those cases, Jones,

933
00:47:28.840 --> 00:47:30.960
mister Jones would have done something. I mean, he would

934
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:34.920
have visited the property, produced them sketches that he would

935
00:47:34.920 --> 00:47:37.239
have given the Bobby. If we're talking about, you know,

936
00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:40.000
the West Coast courses or courses in Japan that they

937
00:47:40.039 --> 00:47:43.159
did together, he would have had some input, but he

938
00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:45.800
wouldn't have He might have only visited the property once

939
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:48.280
or twice, and Bobby might have been there thirty times.

940
00:47:48.960 --> 00:47:51.400
And so there are a number of courses that are

941
00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:55.440
credited to mister Jones that really are done by either

942
00:47:55.519 --> 00:47:57.960
his one of his two sons, or by Roger Rulitz,

943
00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:02.719
or by Cavil Robinson, who headed up Jones's European operation.

944
00:48:04.760 --> 00:48:07.159
But I don't really I mean, I don't begrudge him

945
00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:11.119
those really at all. And I think maybe the most

946
00:48:11.199 --> 00:48:15.880
interesting crediting issue that comes up is relates to Augusta

947
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:21.280
National Agusta. In the late forties, Bobby Jones brought Trent

948
00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:24.519
in to do some significant remodeling of some of the

949
00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:27.360
holes at Augusta Number sixteen, as.

950
00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:29.320
We know it, one of the great par threas in

951
00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:30.960
the world, was a very.

952
00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:33.800
Different hole before Trent Jones came in and redid it.

953
00:48:33.800 --> 00:48:36.000
It was just a little The tea was right behind

954
00:48:36.039 --> 00:48:38.800
the fifteenth green. There was a little creek. It wasn't

955
00:48:38.840 --> 00:48:41.400
a lake. There was just a little creek, and the

956
00:48:42.079 --> 00:48:44.119
green was on the would have been left of wards.

957
00:48:44.199 --> 00:48:47.119
It is now over that creek. It was a bad hole.

958
00:48:47.960 --> 00:48:49.960
Trent and the membership and the people who had been

959
00:48:49.960 --> 00:48:53.440
playing the masters thought that sixteen was a week sister.

960
00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:56.639
And Jones comes in and redesigns that hole completely.

961
00:48:56.679 --> 00:48:57.559
I mean, it's his hole.

962
00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:02.239
He redesigns the eighteenth green in the mounding around it,

963
00:49:02.639 --> 00:49:07.280
he redesigns the thirteenth green. He's the one that creates

964
00:49:07.719 --> 00:49:11.280
the tee on eleven. He changes eleven from a really

965
00:49:11.320 --> 00:49:14.159
a dog leg right three hundred and fifty yard hole

966
00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:17.679
with a green where that lake that you know.

967
00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:20.199
Isn't isn't there to know.

968
00:49:20.239 --> 00:49:22.679
He finds a tee area back to the left, turns

969
00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:25.760
it into a longer four hundred yard part four that

970
00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:28.039
really kind of turns to the left and has that

971
00:49:28.679 --> 00:49:31.719
and the green gets extended around this lake. And what's

972
00:49:31.719 --> 00:49:34.320
interesting about this is Augusta National doesn't want to it

973
00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:37.159
never has credited Trenton Jones for the work because they

974
00:49:37.159 --> 00:49:39.440
don't want to take any attention away from McKenzie or

975
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:45.000
Bobby Jones, Clifford Roberts, longtime director of the of the Club,

976
00:49:45.039 --> 00:49:47.400
President of the Club and director of the Masters Tournament,

977
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:50.679
you know, never wanted to give Trent that credit. But

978
00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:53.840
you know, I've got documents that are letters. I mean,

979
00:49:53.840 --> 00:49:56.039
I have letters from Bobby Jones to Trent Jones, which

980
00:49:56.079 --> 00:49:58.760
is all about this remodeling work that Trent was involved

981
00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:01.760
with in the late forties early fifties. So to me,

982
00:50:01.920 --> 00:50:06.360
that was more interesting than maybe courses that he shouldn't

983
00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:09.320
get the credit for. Here's maybe the most famous course

984
00:50:09.320 --> 00:50:11.920
in the world except for the old course at Saint Andrews,

985
00:50:12.400 --> 00:50:15.480
and he deserves some credit that Augusta.

986
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:15.800
Never gives him.

987
00:50:16.159 --> 00:50:17.960
And so I mean, I'll be kind of interested to

988
00:50:17.960 --> 00:50:22.440
see what the reaction is from Augusta, uh to what

989
00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:24.719
I write about this in the book. But it's I

990
00:50:24.760 --> 00:50:28.320
have undeniable documentation from in the hand of Bobby Jones himself.

991
00:50:29.159 --> 00:50:33.320
Wow, did he have a course that was his show piece?

992
00:50:33.400 --> 00:50:35.760
They're his favorite that he would like to you know

993
00:50:35.800 --> 00:50:37.960
that he would say to people, this is mine.

994
00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:41.800
Yeah, he had an answer to that every time they

995
00:50:41.840 --> 00:50:46.920
asked him, and the answer was the next one is

996
00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:48.239
gonna be the next one.

997
00:50:48.440 --> 00:50:50.840
Well, yeah, it's like when someone's to me, it's like,

998
00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:53.920
what is the hardest shot in golf? The next one, the.

999
00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:55.480
Next, the next one. Oh.

1000
00:50:55.559 --> 00:50:58.679
He definitely had some favorites, but he you know, he

1001
00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:01.199
always had that one line or you know, when to

1002
00:51:01.280 --> 00:51:04.360
come back when anybody really asked him. But I think

1003
00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:07.599
Spyglass with a course that he was very very proud

1004
00:51:07.639 --> 00:51:11.400
of out on the Monterey Peninsula. I think he was

1005
00:51:12.440 --> 00:51:15.079
very proud of the Dunes Club down of Myrtle Beach.

1006
00:51:15.159 --> 00:51:17.719
I mean Myrtle Beach wasn't Myrtle Beach until I mean

1007
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:19.519
there was I think there was one course at Myrtle

1008
00:51:19.559 --> 00:51:22.519
Beach when Jones designed the Dunes Club in the in

1009
00:51:22.599 --> 00:51:24.840
the late forties. And how many courses are there Myrtle

1010
00:51:24.840 --> 00:51:28.159
Beach now, I mean over well over one hundred, I think,

1011
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:31.599
so Jones is and so that's one of these designs

1012
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:34.960
that is well, very well known. I think he's proud

1013
00:51:34.960 --> 00:51:36.880
of hazel Teine, even though it had a lot of

1014
00:51:36.920 --> 00:51:40.400
controversy when seventy Open was played there and Dave Hill

1015
00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:44.480
you know, said call it a Kyle pastor and said

1016
00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:47.440
he would drive around into you know, drive a tractor

1017
00:51:47.559 --> 00:51:50.239
under the course if he if he won the tournament

1018
00:51:50.360 --> 00:51:53.800
and and so. But I think Jones had they made

1019
00:51:53.800 --> 00:51:57.199
some changes, and he had strong feelings about Hazelteen, Bell

1020
00:51:57.280 --> 00:51:59.039
Reeve and Saint Louis. I think he was proud of

1021
00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:02.360
that one courses. I think of all of courses, maybe

1022
00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:04.280
the course that's rated highest.

1023
00:52:04.639 --> 00:52:06.119
If there was a recent.

1024
00:52:07.039 --> 00:52:11.280
Poll that the golf architects were raiding golf courses around

1025
00:52:11.320 --> 00:52:13.880
the world, and I took a real close look at that,

1026
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:18.360
and the very top rated golf course by Jones.

1027
00:52:18.039 --> 00:52:19.599
Was Valderama in Spain.

1028
00:52:21.320 --> 00:52:23.400
Jones that was where the Ryder Cup was played in

1029
00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:27.960
ninety seven. And before he did Valderama, in the same property,

1030
00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:30.440
he did a course called Soda Grande and it was

1031
00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:34.400
the first course where American turf grass was introduced into

1032
00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:35.199
Southern Europe.

1033
00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:38.679
And so it's a very significant course historically.

1034
00:52:38.840 --> 00:52:42.760
And so Soda Gronde Valdorama, or certainly two of his

1035
00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:45.960
better known It's Mona Kea in Hawaii. I think that's

1036
00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:51.599
another one early on in the Hawaii the popularity of

1037
00:52:51.639 --> 00:52:54.480
Hawaii as a tourist destination. That was part of a

1038
00:52:54.599 --> 00:53:01.119
Lawrence Rockefeller resort development. I think those are all really

1039
00:53:01.239 --> 00:53:03.239
in the you know, in the ballpark of his of

1040
00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:03.960
his favorites.

1041
00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:08.480
Excellent. Wow, what an amazing story.

1042
00:53:09.400 --> 00:53:12.960
Yeah it is, and uh it's you know, it's going

1043
00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:15.840
to be challenging for me as I go around the

1044
00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:18.320
country giving talks and try and keep it to twenty

1045
00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:20.800
minutes if I can, Uh, you know, well, how to

1046
00:53:20.840 --> 00:53:24.320
focus it because it is really an epic It's an

1047
00:53:24.360 --> 00:53:26.119
epic American story, you know.

1048
00:53:26.360 --> 00:53:27.119
That's why I hope.

1049
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:29.239
People will give it, will read it that are not

1050
00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:33.079
maybe not even huge fans of golf or golf architecture,

1051
00:53:33.079 --> 00:53:36.360
because it's a it's an incredible story of an immigrant

1052
00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:40.159
coming to America with big dreams, big ideas, and and

1053
00:53:40.159 --> 00:53:44.719
and doing different things and finding ways to achieve his goals,

1054
00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:46.800
but at a price, always at a price.

1055
00:53:46.960 --> 00:53:48.800
Yeah, and big is an understatement.

1056
00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:51.360
Yeah, yeah it is.

1057
00:53:51.559 --> 00:53:53.559
Well the name again, the name of the book is

1058
00:53:54.199 --> 00:53:57.719
a difficult part. Robert Trent Jones, Sr. And the Making

1059
00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:01.920
of Modern Golf by James R. Hands, also the author

1060
00:54:02.039 --> 00:54:07.280
of First Man, The Life of Neil Armstrong. What boy,

1061
00:54:07.519 --> 00:54:09.639
what a dichotomy of going you have to write on

1062
00:54:09.679 --> 00:54:13.960
that one. That's amazing. Jim, thank you so much for

1063
00:54:14.039 --> 00:54:17.000
your time, and for the explanation and for your work here.

1064
00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:21.280
This is spectacular. And I hope that I get together

1065
00:54:21.320 --> 00:54:22.880
with you in Alabama and play some golf.

1066
00:54:23.400 --> 00:54:24.440
You call me anytime.

1067
00:54:24.519 --> 00:54:28.000
Fred Well, thank you so much. Jim, thanks a lot,

1068
00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:28.920
you

1069
00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:30.000
Bet, thank you very much,